@lain Indeed, we need to do better; everyone deserves user freedom, not just people who can figure out how to compile software at the command line.

@lain Obviously we want to leave that path open but not have it be you-must-be-this-tall-to-have-user-freedom :)

@cwebber @lain Matrix got it exactly backwards. Hackers be all "I don't even see blondes and redheads, I just see green kana, green kana ..."

@clacke @cwebber @lain Which part did they get backwards?

@aidalgol @cwebber @lain In Matrix there's a scene where one of the hackers says "I don't even see [the falling green characters] anymore, I just see blonde, redhead ...".

He is so used to seeing the symboIic representation that he has internalized the simulation.

What happens more in real life is that a hacker seated in front of a GUI ("simulation") gets frustrated with the abstraction layers and streamlined experience that just make her think "what stupid button do I need to click to make X happen in the underlying model", and longs for a rich REPL where you can be more fine-grained and hands-on with the model, and create your own abstractions as you need them.

@clacke @cwebber @lain Oh THE Matrix. I thought you were talking about Matrix, the federation messaging platform.

@lain @cwebber seems to me what your bemoaning is not aligned with the "scratch your own itch" ("enlightened self-interest") underpinnings of the whole thing. #FOSS provides an opportunity for individuals to grow and learn - it doesn't have any obligation to hand anyone a "product". That's for commercially motivated businesses to provide the scarce goods of one-on-one tutition and suport.

@lain @cwebber In general terms proprietary hasn't been such an ace at that either, actually.

@tagomago @cwebber they've done a lot better than foss, which is the important aspect here.

@lain @tagomago @cwebber Having to stake its continued survival on user uptake as opposed to how many developers it can intrigue certainly gives proprietary software an advantage in that regard.