> make server literally with the goal of making it easy and cheap to host, because i think it empowers people to host their own infrastructure
> 1 year later
> "hey Pleroma could be pretty good for people without many resources, even if the devs are all horrible people"
@kaniini I suspect a lot of the hate for Pleroma comes from two sources:
- Historic "political division" between GNU Social and Mastodon as in terms of leftie vs alt-right (which wasn't even GNU Social's developers' doing or desire really), some folks from that space moving to Pleroma and thus to a lot of folks Pleroma being mentally branded that way
- @lain is the fediverse's class clown and recent events have lead many people to associate that kind of irreverent humor with undesirable stuff
@deadsuperhero @kaniini I'm not making a judgement call, just giving my analysis
also I don't know how @lain will feel about being labeled "the fediverse's class clown" but I suspect they won't deny it ;)
honestly...thanks for the input personally I have no idea of its use but ay, maybe it will help :)
@deadsuperhero @kaniini @lain fwiw I'm glad Pleroma exists and I hope that:
a) development continues and is great
b) a diverse set of users adopt it
does Pleroma have a code of conduct btw? Might send (part of) the right message to adopt one
@hector @cwebber @lain @kaniini @deadsuperhero Du bist kein Gangster, nein, denn du dealst mit Dope (dealst mit Dope).
Du bist nicht real.
Du bist nur Show (Nur. Show.)
@phoe @kaniini well.. I've subscribed to @lain and unsubscribed again before a few times, and looking at their timeline, stuff like https://pleroma.soykaf.com/objects/a7213df9-c372-4662-b466-c76d6ac7d201 and https://pleroma.soykaf.com/objects/b9341afb-6f63-47da-aa4f-77f7df00afe4 is why, and probably is why people get that impression.
(Lain, sorry to talk about you in the third person as if you aren't here. But consider that feedback I guess?)
@pea @lain @kaniini @phoe not what I see when I read them. The first one looks like it's making fun of women organizing together, and the second looks like it's making fun of jewish noses.
And maybe you could make the argument that your interpretation is correct, but it's very hard to distinguish between ironic-social-commentary-meta-bigotry and actual-bigotry, *especially* in this era.
>The first one looks like it's making fun of women organizing together
Yes and ?
It's a mistake people making mistake can be fun.
>and the second looks like it's making fun of jewish noses.
And ?
>*especially* in this era.
Are you saying that people who take quotes/images of other people and then interpret them elsewhere are a problem ?
@mangeurdenuage @lain @phoe @kaniini thanks for proving my point buddy
@mangeurdenuage I'll elaborate, but only because you said "please".
> Yes and ?
> It's a mistake people making mistake can be fun.
You said "yes, and?" to making fun of women organizing. It looks like categorically like misogynistic skepticism that women can successfully organize.
>> and the second looks like it's making fun of jewish noses.
> And ?
Does it need elaboration? Right now when literal nazis are being normalized again?
That's as much elaboration as I'm giving.
This is where we are disagreeing but that's just because we have both different definition of misogyny and different interpretation of the scene, and that's ok.
For me it's just making fun of a silly mistake that some people did and that's all, I don't overthink to the point of asking myself if there's an inferior sex.
>>Does it need elaboration? Right now when literal nazis are being normalized again?
Again that's just because we think and interpret differently and it's very interesting for my pov.
Is it reasonable to think that everyone who makes a jokes about X stereotype is actively supporting a specific ideology ? I do not say that such people do not exist I'm saying that it is improbable irl to have people who really believe such things.
>>That's as much elaboration as I'm giving.
Thank you for being cordial.
I would like to exchange more in the future. I really would like to understand why there's such difference in our way of understanding/seeing the world.
Again thank you.
When I looked at those posts, I saw them the way @cwebber did, but what @pea sees also made a lot of sense to me. Either way, when I've seen these kinds of things from @lain , even when they do look "bad", they've never been very clearly bad. As someone who is very frequently misinterpreted (due to flat affect mostly) I don't think it's fair to project an interpretation onto lain in these situations, especially when lain has otherwise always said good/"progressive" things.
this is my private acocunt and dont discuss what I work on much here though. And I wouldn't dream of bringing up my fedi account to fellow contributors.
Lain can shitpost because lain is behind the shield of anonymity, and lain is working on a project that isn't serious buisness. I wish for that kind of freedom. All the more power to lain for pulling it off and having fun.
@kaniini @phoe @pea @cwebber @lain @sonya it's good to hear, but also what is 'serious' depends a lot on cultural frameworks and it can be perceived differently depending on different privilege levels of the regarding angle. to put it simply, what's joke for somebody can turn out to be humiliation for others
@kaniini @sonya @lain @cwebber @pea @phoe it's not my place to delve into specific examples, and I wasn't referring necessarily to just one developer, I instead wanted to point out that for a social media platform to be inclusive and attractive to a wide community the software itself is not enough, it takes a lot of effort and it needs input from multiple cultural fronts
@aidalgol @kaniini @lain Urgh, no I don't know of a good writeup, but here's the tl;wh (too long; wasn't here):
- StatusNet written and the base of most of GNU Social (and generally written and had a community that was very lefty, but occasionally left-libertarian) but StatusNet closes shop. GNU Social is the continuation.
- "chan culture", originally jokingly problematic (arguably joking doesn't make it less racist or sexist), becomes "ha ha only completely serious"
(1/2)
- many chan'ish alt-right folks kicked off of twitter, start to move to GNU Social instances. (Plenty of GNU Social instances not happy with this notably!)
- Mastodon comes along, supports OStatus (GNU Social's protocol)
- leftie, largely LGBT folks *also* leave Twitter, for the opposite reason! Many flock to Mastodon.
- Unsurprisingly, plenty of folks start to interpret this as GNU Social vs Mastodon as alt-right vs left, which is unfortunate
(2/...3?)
- Mastodon starts moving from OStatus to ActivityPub. Some of the squabbling spills over into that. Awkward
- Pleroma begins using ActivityPub very actively, and that's when https://octodon.social/@cwebber/100239388817712633 begins to apply IMO
(3/3)
Anyway, that's my own personal interpretation and read of that history...
@cwebber @aidalgol @kaniini trev's article provides some more context but yeah i agree with this account of things
https://medium.com/@Trevatos/gnu-social-pleroma-and-the-mastodon-culture-conflict-3b10872937c2
with old mastos, i think probably 75% of the hate comes from negative associations from way back when pleroma was just a GS frontend and masto was limited to just m.s and our options were basically federate with people who hated us or don't federate at all. the fediverse has changed a lot since then…
@deadsuperhero @kibi just wait till Spritely becomes un-vaporware and I either do activitypub completely wrong in the greatest source of irony ever OR I do everything completely right but start doing things that other "real world" implementations don't support!
@cwebber @deadsuperhero i'm looking forward to it lol 😜
@deadsuperhero @kibi I'm not working on MediaGoblin's current-mediagoblin codebase right now so I can't say ;)
My whole spare time focus is spent on MediaGoblin TNG (aka Spritely)
@deadsuperhero @kibi I know, I know. I've gone through plenty of mental anguish over how to spend the time I have for this, and it's easy for me to self-doubt that, and I don't blame anyone giving me shit for it
but I have my reasons
@cwebber @deadsuperhero ur reasons are good and they'll be even better once they're not vaporware and made into a working implementation 😉😜
@cwebber @kibi I get it, but wasn't MediaGoblin your initial push to make ActivityPub a thing?
What would it even take to get it federating with other fediverse multimedia platforms at this point? I'd love to be able to federate with the LibrePlanet MG instance so that I can watch the talks and comment on them from PeerTube.
Point of order: MediaGoblin is older than ActivityPub, older than pump.io even.
I still remember when the guy on identi.ca with the weird cute alien monster avatar said he was planning to write a better gallery application and I was thinking "yeah right, aren't we all".
Well, he sure showed me. <3
@notclacke @deadsuperhero ha... I wasn't anticipating anyone would take me seriously either. What a journey it's been!
@deadsuperhero @kibi Also, *is* it desperately needed? One of the reasons I shifted to Spritely is because other folks (Funkwhale, PixelFed, PeerTube) were covering MediaGoblin's domain... and well too! (Though none of them are doing "all the media types" like MediaGoblin was, but I can't for the life of me figure out why they wouldn't... @Chocobozzz, when are you gonna wise up and add multiple media types support to PeerTube? ;))
@cwebber @kaniini @lain First reason makes sense, but the second reason is kind of ridiculous.