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Apparently the new audacity owners are adding telemetry to it :/ This is....concerning. Especially because that PR discussion has _zero_ opposition to the feature being added

github.com/audacity/audacity/p

Reminder to structure your projects in a way that they can't easily be taken over by a single company. Yes, I know it's a privilege being able to work on free software besides your day job. But if you have people getting paid for their work, make sure it's via different funding sources, or organisations.

Companies _will_ try to take over successful projects. Embrace, extend, extinguish never really went away and we have to deal with the fact that companies _want_ control over our communities

@spacekookie someone has added after your comment that " and an IP may be considered "personal info".

My company's data protection officer, a lawyer, and someone from the ico, all agreed when we asked this question. This prompted us to change our software's logging.

@basil @spacekookie I mean, even if we do not trust your data protection officer, lawyer and ico guy, the GDPR clearly and unequivocally states that the IP address can be used to identify a "natural person" and is therefore personal data.

@basil @spacekookie and you know, GDPR is a pretty important thing, at least in europe.

@Olomorn @basil @spacekookie well, yeah, I'm no lawyer, and I honestly didn't took the time to go read the GDPR, that's why I used conditional. I updated my comment with a post-scriptum.

Thank you for telling us about that change

@amael
Wasn't my intention to criticise your comment.
Sorry if my post came across as dismissive.

@basil No, it didn't come as dismissive, I thank you for providing knowledge I didn't have at the time of writing.

@amael My understanding was that an IP address was only personal data under GDPR if it can be used to identify the end user directly, for example by tying it to other personal information.

whitecase.com/publications/ale

@Olomorn @basil @spacekookie

@jamie gdpr came in after this judgement.

GDPR specifically mentions IP addresses as personal data.

The complications and legal wrangling are always with if it can be considered appropriate or legitimate to hold and process a given bit of personal data in the context with which it is collected.

It's very simple until it gets very complicated. 😅

@basil Ah, so it was.

I remember wrangling over this when trying to work out if I needed a GDPR banner because of my system logs - which do store IPs - but I felt (not a lawyer) that it fell under legitimate interest.

@jamie our eggheads said our system could have usable logging without full IP addresses.

As in, it's not a core part of our functionality (and whilst it makes our life harder for debugging and user research etc) it isn't essential. So we just changed it rather than carry on discussing it.

But other systems, situations, and interpretations are available, etc.

@basil Makes sense. Better to err on the safe side.

@spacekookie
What's it about?

In other news have they fixed the ugly logo yet? We'd try but have no intention of going up in that ridiculous Hall of Tortured Sods.

People need to look at that thing… sighs.

@spacekookie hey @aral I know you'll be a good person to signal boost this "wonderful" turn of events.

@spacekookie that comment says everything that needed to be said on the issue, thanks for taking the time to write it!

@spacekookie Can you cite your reasons for believing that Audacity is being taken over by a single company? I'm not seeing any obvious indication of that, but maybe I'm overlooking something?

@spacekookie @klaatu Sh*t. I thought it was cool because musescore turns out to be pretty good. But this is the same company that made this horrible mess called ultimate guitar.

@Segebodo

"Ultimate Guitar" was their first product. Then they took over the already successful musescore (which originally used to be a spinoff of muse-sequencer.github.io/ ), and while they did add some good features, they also killed the free option for the online service musescore.com in a deal with the Music Industry ™, because that's actually their main area of expertise.

That github issue is now a shitshow btw

@spacekookie @klaatu

@spacekookie @klaatu built on ultimate guitar that annoyed me for years because it took over many search results for chords while being much worse to use than plain text score and chord files. But it seems they managed to earn money from that. Maybe it’s better to use when you pay them?

@spacekookie @klaatu Comments say he is now design lead for two FOSS audio projects, what's the other one?

@spacekookie @klaatu looking at more comments on the PR i see this company has pulled shit like this (and gotten shit from it) before musescore.org/en/telemetry

which takes this from bad idea to sus idea

@alcinnz @spacekookie this has hella prosperity gospel megachurch energy 🤮

@spacekookie So... how _do_ companies take over an open source project like Audacity?

Need to know how it works in order to know how to prevent it.

@Downes @spacekookie As someone who knows nothing about development but is a fan of Floss, I'd like to know that too.
@digitalcourage , is that something you're interested in looking into?

@ManniCalavera @Downes @spacekookie

Project members have added a clarification on top of the issue page stating that telemetry will be optional and disabled by default (see attached screenshot), among other things. /c

@digitalcourage @Downes @spacekookie Thank you, I did in fact not get that, but I meant what @Downes mentioned: under which circumstances is it possible that a Floss-Project is taken over by some corporation, and how do you prevent it? This is something that is bothering me (because I have no clue), with MS in the Linux Foundation and whatnot.

@spacekookie Nobody concerned about +5,506 −25 lines of diff that adds telemetry? Wow :flan_despair:​

@spacekookie I suppose firefox has normalized this :flan_sad:

I like your feedback on it: "If you want to know what your users think about something, ask us" :flan_thumbs:​

@stsp STOP DOING ANALYTICS meme.

Wanted to know what your users thought of your software anyway for a laugh? We had a tool for that. It's called SURVEYS

:D

@be @spacekookie @stsp The presumption that the users don't know or won't tell what they really want. Very in spirit of MS, concerning.

@spacekookie @stsp To be fair, anonymous analytics with easy opt-out can be useful for people who don't care about privacy but instead quality.

@jookia @stsp lol equating having analytics in your program to quality is a high mark that you have to prove. Plenty of proprietary software scrapes every user action out of your client and is, at the same time, fucking awful.

Analytics are this big data brain worm that companies keep going back to because it allows them to stake their company value on how many active users they have. it's a capitalist tool, not a design one

@spacekookie So what would you suggest instead that requires no user interaction?

@jookia What a stupid fucking question. Why do you assume that no user interaction is possible?

Also, usability studies exist.

@spacekookie Don't bother replying if you're just going to berate my posts. Thanks.

@jookia @spacekookie Scraping off the angry words the content is that there is no magical technosolution. To know what users want and need, interaction and empathy are key. Telemetry is not interaction and it's negative empathy.

@clacke Please untag me from this thread. Not interested.

@jookia @spacekookie Audacity is already excellent. they don't need telemetry.

since it's such an onerous thing to have, the default should be that there is never telemetry collected unless they have a very clear, agreed-upon reason for adding it that can be stated up front and is not controversial. the default SHOULD NOT be to add it with an opt-out.

@spacekookie @stsp @jookia I am not actually sure how they are useful.

Also - opt-in seems less evil?

@silverwizard Mainly things like surveying which features, OSes and hardware people use so you can drop support for them when nobody's using them any more. Crash reports are good too in some cases.

@jookia But you can get that from downloads and support requests - can't you?

@silverwizard Downloads no because OS/hardware is a runtime issue. Support requests yes, but people aren't just going to make support requests to tell me they're enjoying the software and they use X OS and X hardware.

@jookia Ok, but the correlation between OS/hardware downloads and runtime is high enough to be pretty representative. Live telemetry is going to be less accurate, because some OSes are going to remove it from their package, and therefore not going to be represented.

As for the support, I meant to replace crash reports. And if it's support requests, you have motivated users, not users who just tried to open .jpges as the primary source and therefore give you such a high signal to noise as to be useless.
@jookia What percent of users download software from a computer they are not going to run it on?

Of the users that don't do that, what percent accept telemetry?
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