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You: "What do you mean open source software reeks of elitism and toxicity?"

Arch Linux:

@embr I should put some more effort into the nix config on my personal laptop.
I usually just use my work laptop so I don't get around to it a lot

@spacekookie @embr

I really like Arch Linux.
But I would not consider myself as a elitist or expert in anyway. I maybe not a newbie either.

I certainly would not change my distro, but try to fight this elitism from within. Either by pursuing the elitists to reflect their behavior or to show the opposite to the newbies and give the impression of open mindedness towards others.

@patrik @embr I'm a woman in open source. My entire life is banging my head against sexist, elitist, toxic and shitty institutions and people.

I have to deal with abuse and condescending behaviour every _single_ day.

There are limits to how much energy I have to deal with shit 😬 I wish you a lot of luck though, Linux communities really need to change...

@spacekookie @embr

I am deeply sorry to hear that you do not get respected. It's a shame and I really hope that you are going to endure until the communities adapted to living in 2018...

@patrik @spacekookie unfortunately, at some point, most realise it's just not worth it, because the probem is too systemic. these people will fight any attempt to make things more civil (eg. CoCs), especially if championed by a woman, who's inevitably seen as an "intruder" into their testosterone-fueled heck cave

@embr @patrik Thank you for typing the thing I no longer have the strength to type 😭 πŸ˜‚

@spacekookie i wouldn't say that is elitism alone because it's, like, on purpose and for security reasons. it becomes elitism when arch users feel superior over ubuntu users and shit like that

@CobaltVelvet I mean, it's not even that I disagree with the sentiment that you should know how to install AUR packages yourself before you use a helper script. But like...helper scripts can do _so_ much more and at some point should be held accountable to work, even just for convenience.

The entire paragraph is just such a dumpster fire :/

@CobaltVelvet Yeah I'm in line with @spacekookie. Granted, does this even go on to mention an official support channel? If not, then this is just asking people wanting to tinker with it to fail

@jalcine @CobaltVelvet Seconded. The only acceptable phrasing would have been "Sorry that we can't make this work for everybody at the moment, but we'd be stoked to incorporate contributions that bring us closer to this goal!"

But it does not, so @spacekookie s analysis that this is exclusionary and elitist is very much accurate.

@CobaltVelvet @tethre @jalcine @spacekookie fwiw the dev made aurman mostly for themselves and then got overwhelmed with requests by people who kept filing issues that had nothing to do with aurman whatsoever, so that rant is mostly coming out of a place of frustration and not malice

that doesn't really absolve the elitist tone though, there are better ways to say "please read the faq before filing an issue"

@CobaltVelvet @tethre @jalcine @spacekookie also other note: yay is a more well-supported helper if you're into that, and also more helpful for most people and more easily installed

of course the usual caveats apply to any aur helper: be careful what you install from aur, know what you're doing, etc etc.

@trwnh @tethre @jalcine @spacekookie personally i've been using yaourt and then trizen and trizen is pretty nice (pacman-style arguments; interactions are concise)

@CobaltVelvet yaourt is the worst tbh, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that yaourt is the cause of most broken systems, aside from octopi (which regularly performs partial upgrades and leaves your system in a broken state)

i used to use packer before it was renamed to packer-aur; that was basically a bash script to clean build packages and nothing else. no fluff

@CobaltVelvet @spacekookie

As far as I get the vibes from this text it does blame the user for not being the Arch Linux expert that others are.
He could warn to use it, because one does not understand the basics behind the helper, which could favor security issues, and could encourage the Newbie to learn more about it or give Links to information itself.

But the author decides to enforce a wall that separates the elitists. It's lack of will to provide help and the top-down view on people.

@patrik @jalcine @CobaltVelvet I mean...elitism by Arch users towards anybody else (i.e. Ubuntu users) is definitely still a thing, let's not forget that 😬

It just doesn't magically stop when people use Arch.

@spacekookie @jalcine @CobaltVelvet

I totally agree! Personally I experienced both.

Getting rejected because the problem seems trivial and that one showed me the basics and explained the reasons for it as well.

@patrik @spacekookie also just before that paragraph there is " I am not willing to continue developing aurman for public use."

i can get not wanting your repo to be the aur-related-issue garbage every time a package breaks and some user [that prolly got convinced by an elitist that arch is the best] thinks you should fix it

@patrik @spacekookie like, arch is a diy distribution kit, it's a major pain in the ass and waste of time and expects you to fix everything in it with some help from the community wiki

really the problem is elitists advertising arch as a decent distribution for anyone not 100% ok with that

@CobaltVelvet @patrik I don't think it's this black and white. Yes, Arch is a DYI distro and to some extent there is some manual labour to be expected.

And yea, I totally understand that someone might not want to develop FOSS anymore because everybody just expects you to fix shit with no gratification.

The paragraph doesn't help though. And...documentation is an important part of the process, for any tool.

@CobaltVelvet @patrik For example, I wouldn't call the Arch wiki good docs because it completely overloads new users with so much crap they don't really understand, it's hard to near impossible on some issues to actually figure out what is important and what isn't.

idk, maybe I have the expectation that if you write a tool, you teach people how to use it. This isn't about Arch specifically either, but about any tool.

@spacekookie @patrik well yeah i think that's an unreasonable expectation for arch. not everyone has time to do and document and fix and maintain and....

i expect that of microsoft, of someone that tells me i have to use arch, but not on a pile of free hacks dumped on github

@spacekookie @patrik (especially because aurman is literally a few hacks dumped on github, it's not even supported by arch itself)

@spacekookie @patrik i mean i think it's safe to say that we free software developers are already exploited and burnt out enough as it is and expecting anyone to support their software forever is a bit Too Much

@CobaltVelvet @patrik I'm not arguing that if you put stuff on github it has to be supported forever. God knows I know the churn of supporting FOSS.

Also I think the fact that aurman is unofficial doesn't change anything here. The entire AUR isn't really officially supported.

And yea, I can understand that the developer of aurman dropped out and stopped maintaining shit.

That notice was there before. I just re-noticed it now. And it isn't any less toxic if you view it in context...

@CobaltVelvet @patrik Regardless of context, regardless of what FOSS developers have to endure, I can fully support and understand frustration and not wanting to be support. Or being abused by people for not fixing bugs or whatever.

But that paragraph is everything that's wrong with FOSS. Because it's the same mind set that probably made the originally developer quit. And that's pretty sad...

@spacekookie @patrik but wouldn't they quit because of the expectations? when i give something up it's because it requires too much work, not out of elitism because i want to make it deliberately harder for people to use

@CobaltVelvet @patrik I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

The reason why the maintainer left and the elitist comment are unlikely related. Doesn't make the elitist comment any better...

Also, I very much doubt most elitist people are being "deliberately" elitist. Few people do even fewer things deliberately. They just do it, either justifying it to themselves somehow or just not thinking about it (i.e. "bad" people think they're "good", liberals think they're not idiots, etc... :P)

@spacekookie @patrik maybe the potentially elitist comment is exclusively motivated by not being able to properly do any support

many people are also shitty at explaining their reasons :p

@CobaltVelvet @patrik I wouldn't call the comment "potentially elitist", I'd call it elitist bullcrap that spends more characters than a toot shitting on anyone who might run into problems with this tool. Instead of, say, linking to a guide on how to use AUR (which sucks in the arch wiki), it belittles it's users and very clearly communicates that there is an in and out group.

The author might not have thought "oh I am so elitist" while writing it, but that doesn't change it after the fact...

@spacekookie @patrik i read the whole thing like "my software is primitive and shitty and unsupported and you probably shouldn't use it, i'm just putting that here for other who may want to do something useful with it"

@spacekookie At least Arch is pretty clear throughout its docs that you're expected to mostly fend for yourself if wolves suddenly and unexpectedly appear. (This is why Arch probably shouldn't be recommended in general, except maybe to people looking to move off Gentoo. It's a lot, and not wanting to deal with potential loads of crap is very valid.)

@bb010g No. If you don't want to maintain open source software, then don't do open source software.

@spacekookie Eeh? That seems more like a support thing, which I'd count as different. Paying for support for open source gives you a reason to not expect to have to hack on it. In terms of distros, you don't really have non-enterprise options anymore like Red Hat Linux, though.

@spacekookie @bb010g funny, many open source software users reek of entitlement too

@spacekookie I hate people. "If you can't think like me, go fuck yourself. If you are learning by doing, go fuck yourself. If your field is not IT, then double fuck yourself."

@spacekookie hold up...

so they made a helper program... that is designed to I guess help automate some of the bits of programming or somethng...

but they say that basically that it's only for advanced users??? surely an advanced user doesn't NEED a helper program?!?

fucksake what a bunch of dickheads.

@Nine Realistically the helper is just to make things more convenient. Reduce time to install a complex program from half an hour (by hand) to however fast your computer can download, build and install it.

So I would argue beginners and advanced users alike have reason to use it both.

@spacekookie this is absolutely true. I mostly take exception with their sneering insistence that only "advanced" users can and should use it, like you pointed out.

@Nine @spacekookie They target advanced users. it's clearly stated in readme, your disagreement with this statement doen't give you right to call anyone β€ždickhead”.

@spacekookie s/Arch\sLinux/some random Arch user/g

Also: Releasing code as open source doesn't mean you have to provide support or even maintain it. In this case author clearly stated they not willing to spend time on support. That's fair in my opinion.

@TeddyDD They don't have to be a dick about it, though. See my counter-example further up

@tethre they are free to do whatever they want with personal project. If you disagree you have right to fork or STFU.

@spacekookie That's because Arch isn't Ubuntu. It's not targeting the average human.

Most of the time Arch is quite usable, but I've found there are odd occasions where you do an update and *everything* stops working and it won't even boot, because there was a kernel or systemd problem. A non-technical user isn't going to have a clue about how to fix that, and that's why I wouldn't recommend it unless you're familiar with kernel hacking and related stuff.

@bob Congratulations on missing the point ... __completely__.

Next?

@bob

@spacekookie

This is a very specific case and the OP is historically very much out of context

AURman was publicly developed and available for use until a few monthsago when the developer received abusive "support" requests.

As a result the project has been removed from public development and the developer requested it be removed from the Arch Wiki pages it appears on.

Perhaps if some people were less adversarial in their preconceived expectations of opensource projects (which can be forked if there are changes the assumed direction) we would still have AURman available to use as it was a good AUR helper.

@spacekookie really intrigued by the idea that you have to know how to do and fix everything AND that there's a place for bug reports. if you know how to do everything, how can anything be a bug? this is the worst policy i've ever read, i'm obsessed now

in fact why should you need to do a feature request if you already know how to do what want to do

@spacekookie (i realize it's meant to help and make things faster, but also drawing the absurd statement out to the extremes of possible meaning is funny 2 me)

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