You: "What do you mean open source software reeks of elitism and toxicity?"
@embr I should put some more effort into the nix config on my personal laptop.
I usually just use my work laptop so I don't get around to it a lot
I really like Arch Linux.
But I would not consider myself as a elitist or expert in anyway. I maybe not a newbie either.
I certainly would not change my distro, but try to fight this elitism from within. Either by pursuing the elitists to reflect their behavior or to show the opposite to the newbies and give the impression of open mindedness towards others.
I have to deal with abuse and condescending behaviour every _single_ day.
There are limits to how much energy I have to deal with shit 😬 I wish you a lot of luck though, Linux communities really need to change...
@patrik @spacekookie unfortunately, at some point, most realise it's just not worth it, because the probem is too systemic. these people will fight any attempt to make things more civil (eg. CoCs), especially if championed by a woman, who's inevitably seen as an "intruder" into their testosterone-fueled heck cave
@spacekookie i wouldn't say that is elitism alone because it's, like, on purpose and for security reasons. it becomes elitism when arch users feel superior over ubuntu users and shit like that
@CobaltVelvet I mean, it's not even that I disagree with the sentiment that you should know how to install AUR packages yourself before you use a helper script. But like...helper scripts can do _so_ much more and at some point should be held accountable to work, even just for convenience.
The entire paragraph is just such a dumpster fire :/
@jalcine @CobaltVelvet Seconded. The only acceptable phrasing would have been "Sorry that we can't make this work for everybody at the moment, but we'd be stoked to incorporate contributions that bring us closer to this goal!"
But it does not, so @spacekookie s analysis that this is exclusionary and elitist is very much accurate.
@CobaltVelvet @tethre @jalcine @spacekookie fwiw the dev made aurman mostly for themselves and then got overwhelmed with requests by people who kept filing issues that had nothing to do with aurman whatsoever, so that rant is mostly coming out of a place of frustration and not malice
that doesn't really absolve the elitist tone though, there are better ways to say "please read the faq before filing an issue"
of course the usual caveats apply to any aur helper: be careful what you install from aur, know what you're doing, etc etc.
@CobaltVelvet yaourt is the worst tbh, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that yaourt is the cause of most broken systems, aside from octopi (which regularly performs partial upgrades and leaves your system in a broken state)
i used to use packer before it was renamed to packer-aur; that was basically a bash script to clean build packages and nothing else. no fluff
As far as I get the vibes from this text it does blame the user for not being the Arch Linux expert that others are.
He could warn to use it, because one does not understand the basics behind the helper, which could favor security issues, and could encourage the Newbie to learn more about it or give Links to information itself.
But the author decides to enforce a wall that separates the elitists. It's lack of will to provide help and the top-down view on people.
i can get not wanting your repo to be the aur-related-issue garbage every time a package breaks and some user [that prolly got convinced by an elitist that arch is the best] thinks you should fix it
And yea, I totally understand that someone might not want to develop FOSS anymore because everybody just expects you to fix shit with no gratification.
The paragraph doesn't help though. And...documentation is an important part of the process, for any tool.
@CobaltVelvet @patrik For example, I wouldn't call the Arch wiki good docs because it completely overloads new users with so much crap they don't really understand, it's hard to near impossible on some issues to actually figure out what is important and what isn't.
idk, maybe I have the expectation that if you write a tool, you teach people how to use it. This isn't about Arch specifically either, but about any tool.
Also I think the fact that aurman is unofficial doesn't change anything here. The entire AUR isn't really officially supported.
And yea, I can understand that the developer of aurman dropped out and stopped maintaining shit.
That notice was there before. I just re-noticed it now. And it isn't any less toxic if you view it in context...
@CobaltVelvet @patrik Regardless of context, regardless of what FOSS developers have to endure, I can fully support and understand frustration and not wanting to be support. Or being abused by people for not fixing bugs or whatever.
But that paragraph is everything that's wrong with FOSS. Because it's the same mind set that probably made the originally developer quit. And that's pretty sad...
The reason why the maintainer left and the elitist comment are unlikely related. Doesn't make the elitist comment any better...
Also, I very much doubt most elitist people are being "deliberately" elitist. Few people do even fewer things deliberately. They just do it, either justifying it to themselves somehow or just not thinking about it (i.e. "bad" people think they're "good", liberals think they're not idiots, etc... :P)
@CobaltVelvet @patrik I wouldn't call the comment "potentially elitist", I'd call it elitist bullcrap that spends more characters than a toot shitting on anyone who might run into problems with this tool. Instead of, say, linking to a guide on how to use AUR (which sucks in the arch wiki), it belittles it's users and very clearly communicates that there is an in and out group.
The author might not have thought "oh I am so elitist" while writing it, but that doesn't change it after the fact...
@spacekookie At least Arch is pretty clear throughout its docs that you're expected to mostly fend for yourself if wolves suddenly and unexpectedly appear. (This is why Arch probably shouldn't be recommended in general, except maybe to people looking to move off Gentoo. It's a lot, and not wanting to deal with potential loads of crap is very valid.)
@spacekookie Eeh? That seems more like a support thing, which I'd count as different. Paying for support for open source gives you a reason to not expect to have to hack on it. In terms of distros, you don't really have non-enterprise options anymore like Red Hat Linux, though.
@spacekookie I hate people. "If you can't think like me, go fuck yourself. If you are learning by doing, go fuck yourself. If your field is not IT, then double fuck yourself."
@spacekookie hold up...
so they made a helper program... that is designed to I guess help automate some of the bits of programming or somethng...
but they say that basically that it's only for advanced users??? surely an advanced user doesn't NEED a helper program?!?
fucksake what a bunch of dickheads.
@Nine Realistically the helper is just to make things more convenient. Reduce time to install a complex program from half an hour (by hand) to however fast your computer can download, build and install it.
So I would argue beginners and advanced users alike have reason to use it both.
@spacekookie this is absolutely true. I mostly take exception with their sneering insistence that only "advanced" users can and should use it, like you pointed out.
@spacekookie s/Arch\sLinux/some random Arch user/g
Also: Releasing code as open source doesn't mean you have to provide support or even maintain it. In this case author clearly stated they not willing to spend time on support. That's fair in my opinion.
@tethre they are free to do whatever they want with personal project. If you disagree you have right to fork or STFU.
@spacekookie really intrigued by the idea that you have to know how to do and fix everything AND that there's a place for bug reports. if you know how to do everything, how can anything be a bug? this is the worst policy i've ever read, i'm obsessed now
in fact why should you need to do a feature request if you already know how to do what want to do
@spacekookie (i realize it's meant to help and make things faster, but also drawing the absurd statement out to the extremes of possible meaning is funny 2 me)
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