@alana I am managing an engineering and an ops team, and we have product owner roles, but not product managers. You can ask questions, and I _might_ be able to answer them.
@alana sure -- ops people are mostly driven by unplannable and untimely events. Product people that try to apply cycle based processes to their interaction with ops people will see those processes fail. This usually changes when the product people start seeing ops as stakeholders for product features, and you involve them like that.
@oliof what an interesting response, thank you! it hadn't yet occurred to me that the cycle-based processes product is normally steeped in would be a misfit for ops, but it seems obvious now that you've said it.
I wonder about the differences between ops teams maintaining legacy infrastructure vs ops teams building new infra.. perhaps the latter would still use product's methodologies, at least initially.. what do you think?
@alana as soon as you have an interrupting source of incoming tasks, the immediate feedback cycle of that breaks the disintermediated one of something like SCRUM for example. If you can plan 50% of your time _at best_ the overhead for cycle based processes (and also timeline based processes like waterfall) kills any possible added efficiencies. It also frustrates the ops people.
I have more thoughts about that but they do not fit within the margin of this reply (mostly about CMMI and tooling).
@oliof yes, it’s a complicated subject since there are so many variables that might be endemic to one organization or another. fascinating to me, honestly