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trans babies 

I've had a load of trans babies exploding my replies on reddit after i pointed out that the definition of transgender officially includes both gender identity and gender expression and trying to carefully explain why that protection was extended to the latter.

Fifty downvotes each thing i post.
Two girls arguing with me relentlessly. "Crossdressers bad!" One swore to me "I know my history" has now admitted to another they dont even understnad what "gnc people" means and the other..

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trans babies 

and the other has just said ""trans community elders" implies authority feom age, a concept I fully oppose."

"For the latter, it's actually somewhat problematic to say that non/pre-transition trans people are included in the community on the basis of their expression differing from the norms of their agab. ...

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trans babies 

"Many pre-medical trans people don't really express their gender in their clothing etc. I'll use myself as an example of this. I'm a trans girl in the process of seeking HRT. I don't really express my gender in my clothing or the like. My expression could be argued to be along the norms for my agab. Regardless of my expression, I am trans due to my gender being different than my agab.""

Babe.. YOU are the pre-transition trans folk this is designed to protect wtf are you on.

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trans babies 

🤦‍♀️ Babe, have you changed any of your documents yet? Is it listed anywhere on a government document that your gender identity is different to your assigned gender?

No? Then you're arguing against yourself being included in the trans community's protection of healthcare/socialcare.

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trans babies 

Just... 'im a trans girl who has not done anything yet in regards to my own transition in real life, how dare you suggest trans elders might have any knowledge greater than mine, i shall tell you what the trans community needs'

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trans babies 

Also a gem from earlier

"including gender expression will render the term transgender meaningless, everything will break down."

Oh no, we should get in our time machine and go back to the 1980s to warn everybody!

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trans babies 

Also yes i was called a boomer. Lol.

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trans babies 

@mxsiege there's no zealot like someone with a lot of passion and no information

trans babies 

@mxsiege and on the flip, I see trans women elders complaining that babies don’t know about camp trans, Harry Benjamin, and late 90s/early 2000s trans lady internet culture, and it’s like well how would they?

trans babies 

@Cathymarinara everything is a giant messy mess.

trans babies 

@mxsiege always! One of my last roommates was this kind of baby and it was...a lot

trans babies 

@mxsiege (she left her lucrative gig as a video editor for high end commercials, to make & sell communist jewelry, if that gives you a sketch)

trans babies 

@Cathymarinara @mxsiege

If they would talk to trans women who have been around longer *even as peers* a lot of knowledge would be passed down more smoothly, but no, everyone must come kicking and screaming and shouting because they've spent their whole lives looking down on trans women, so why stop now?

trans babies 

@Cathymarinara @mxsiege

This is precisely why I want to get you and me at a table with Sadie Crabtree, Siege. Because you listen, and because it's amazing to talk to the people who were there when things went down. So I'm going to organize that next time i'm in london if i can.

trans babies 

@Eweish Ohh dream date 😍

re: trans babies 

@mxsiege ask them to define gender

trans babies 

@mxsiege ............I was surprised, and then remembered that kids have called the missus ‘like, 50’ so. Of course.

trans babies 

@lawremipsum @mxsiege achievement unlocked

trans babies 

@June @lawremipsum
🎉🎗️🏆🎗️ 🎉
Boomer2019

trans babies 

@mxsiege Ahahaha *dying!!!* 😂😂😂

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege I know two male cross dressers, a drag performer and his gnc boyfriend. And neither of them wants to be called trans, because they're both amab men. Is there a right way to include gbc cis people in *the community* without calling their gender identities into question?

.... I guess I'm also a trans baby & I'm sorry

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie so they're not in the community unless they want to be but the key is they're allowed to be. For example i know there's a large community crossdressers who live down in Brighton who are currently merging into the trans community and some are coming out, others have families and dont want to identify as women. Phrases like "part of the wider trans community" generally get used when talking about inclusivity of crossdressers/gnc who want to be included.

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie Like they're still men, they're still crossdressers or any other label they want to apply to themself. Being part of the trans communtiy doesnt mean they have to take the label trans. Effectivel the way to think of it is the community can be wider than just trans men / women / non-binary people.

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie Because some dont identify as women, but are sex workers and need that protection because they suffer the same transmisogyny violence as trans women, some cannot transition and prefer to identify as men, and some just arent ready yet, but they like being welcome and able to hang out with trans people at events and such and feel the door is open.

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege This resonates with me plenty. Queerness, including genderqueerness, should be an open door to anyone who doesn't fit into cis/het-normativity.

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege I know I really don't want people to call me or think of me as a crossdresser, but I've had to learn not to trash talk cross dressers when I'm urging people to make the distinction... I hope that catches on, honestly :)

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie yes, and very importantly, people have to accept that a lot of the drag/crossdressing community are our allies and it doesn't gain us anything from pushing them away / or saying the door sohuldnt be open to them, because theres this bizarre cold war that often gets brought over because a lot of people are edgy around crossdressers/drag queens.

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege @jennie it’s about coalition, not sameness

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege @jennie I’m a cis dyke and don’t necessarily have the same needs or experiences as a cis gay man or a bisexual NB, but us working together under an umbrella grouping (should) help all of us- laws against discrimination on sexuality in the work place protects all of us despite our individual differences in culture & desire

trans babies, I have a question 

@mxsiege From what I understand of queer history, we've had problems before with people reaching for "normalcy" and "acceptance" when The Straights offered it to *some of us.* It seems like an effective way to scatter a movement — tempt a huge number of people out of it without actually giving them what they wanted

I think you're right, it's important that we have big & robust coalitions with as many groups as possible

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie Yes, there's def also a lot of dysphoric feelings especially early on. When i first came out i was working as a photography assistant professionally and we worked primarily with queer people and drag queens, and it was difficult for me in the early part of transition to spend ages looking closely at drag queens faces and bodies and not feel deeply like they were an attack on my validity.

trans babies, I have a question 

@jennie @mxsiege "we've had problems before with people reaching for "normalcy" and "acceptance" when The Straights offered it to *some of us.* It seems like an effective way to scatter a movement — tempt a huge number of people out of it without actually giving them what they wanted"

Shout it from the rooftops, *thiiiiiiiis*

trans babies 

@mxsiege No, I get it. They're objecting to a performative definition of transgender as excluding people who do not or cannot perform their gender. Why would they need to object? Because (sigh) Contra referred to their gender as "kinda hypothetical" through a performative lens, for one thing, and truscum do likewise. So even though an umbrella definition that includes identity *and* expression, like yours, is totally fine, they're wary of anything centered on performance of gender.

trans babies 

@a_bun yeah, but if you remove gender expression as a definition of being transgender, then until you've legally changed your gender in your country (why in many places requires either GCS, sterilization or HRT and psychological assessments) you can't be defined as transgender so you wont be protected as trans if you're say.. made homeless, or HIV+ or hospitalized etc..

trans babies 

@a_bun its also a little funny but this is what actually broke my shell so to speak. I had the belief that being a crossdresser meant that i wasn't allowed to be trans and that the trans community hated me. Being told by someone that the defintiion of trans included people like me, allowed me to realise i could transition and broke down all my denial.

trans babies 

@mxsiege the idea of official places offering protection to GNC homeless people is (literally) foreign to me because of my government's track record, so I'm glad to hear this is in place elsewhere.

trans babies 

@a_bun no but thats the point, you'd not be GNC, you'd be transgender, its just you wouldnt be able to prove it, so they'd have to accept you based on your gender expression. Say for example right now, my birth certificate says male, but outwardly my presentation is female - am i allowed access to a womens refuge?

trans babies 

@mxsiege This makes zero sense to me. Is a women's refuge for women? Then women get in. Do they really admit people based on presentation, rather than self-identification, and bar them based on legal identification?

trans babies 

@a_bun It depends on the country, in the UK it is up to the discretion of the refuge itself. So the question is what makes a trans woman a woman. How do you tell?

trans babies 

@a_bun and yes, presentation is more likely going to work that self identification.

trans babies 

@mxsiege that's pragmatic, I suppose, but I think it's obvious why trans youth sick of being gatekept and excluded are suspicious of a definition that provides parameters for gatekeepers.

trans babies 

@a_bun wait, but its "gender identity and/or gender expression". They're arguing gender expression should be removed and only gender identity be included. They want tighter parameters for gatekeeping.

trans babies 

@a_bun thats the absurdity, they dont realise it but theyre arguing that they shouldnt be defined as transgender themselves yet because they havent changed their legal documentation.

trans babies 

@mxsiege Do they? Have you asked them? I suspect they would want to include self-identification, a much less onerous restriction than presentation

trans babies 

@a_bun Yeah but until we have reached a point where we're all allowed to legally self-id our gender identity globally surely we should hold on to the definitions we currently have right?

trans babies 

@a_bun like, self identification doesn't just happen because we say we want it? We've been campaigning for it in the UK for the past twenty years and after 3 years of intense debates, a distinct rise of transphobic hate crimes from the focus and 100,000+ people filling in the data forms to figure out how to implement Self-ID its all just been thrown out by the government without any reason because they're right wing and it plays to their base.

trans babies 

@mxsiege @a_bun

> "its all just been thrown out by the government without any reason because they're right wing and it plays to their base."

WAIT WHAT

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