Deprecating IRC in favour of Matrix for Geary support and chat:

I'd rather not have to do this, but we just get way too many people dropping in with support questions then leaving before anyone has has had a chance to answer.

@mjog the longer the GNOME project as a whole delays making a decision about moving to a non-IRC real-time chat service, the more likely it is that Matrix will win by default…

@wjt Certainly looks that way.

Are there any other options though? I mean, XMPP has fallen over trying to be everything to everyone, Signal is too busy becoming its own silo, and Slack, Discord and everything else are capitalist hellscapes that have been backdoored by law enforcement.

@mjog there's a Rocket Chat instance being tested at GNOME.


@mathieu @wjt Haha really, so another electron-only based app? That's sure showing a lot of confidence in our own desktop platform and native apps.

@mjog @mathieu @wjt It's a website; you're absolutely free to write a Rocket Chat native client, though. I mean: the protocol is open, and it'll end up with a WebKitGtk view in a GtkWindow anyway…

@ebassi @mathieu @wjt Or we could just pick a protocol and server that already has a proper native client and that isn't a freemium commercial silo?

@mjog @mathieu @wjt Except Matrix is pretty terrible; it pushes towards unworkable solutions with bridges to other protocols; and the native client isn't really great either

@ebassi and the protocol itself isn't great, the server has awful performance, federation leads to all sorts of problems with things like moderation…

@mjog @wjt

@mathieu @mjog @wjt Yeah, the federation aspect is damning in and of itself. GNOME would need to run its own instance, at which point might as well use a better chat/IM system.

@ebassi @mathieu @mjog @wjt
In Fedora, we've been trying to be principled and use only open source solutions, but in the end (almost) everyone is on Telegram anyway. It's similar in other projects, too.
So my combo for the forseenable future is IRC+Telegram.

@sesivany @mathieu @mjog @wjt One of the goals for the rocket chat service in GNOME is actually to nudge people away from Telegram…

@ebassi @sesivany @mathieu @wjt Is Telegram a Redhat peculiarity? Quite literally the only people I know who use it are the two Russians doing their PhDs at my old lab.

Not sure how replacing a proprietary silo with a freemium commercial silo is a change for the better. As Jiří says we may as well just stick with with the former. I won't be moving Geary's real-time support channel to either anyway.

@mjog @ebassi @mathieu @wjt
not sure if it's a Red Hat thing. The Fedora group on Telegram has almost 3000 members and it exists completely on its own. There are other projects (e.g. LibreOffice) with large groups. I think it's fairly wide-spread among Linux people because the client is native and open source, so it's easily available in distros. And it's pretty good, too. If only other services had such clients.

@ebassi @mathieu @mjog @wjt
Rocket Chat would be nice. I'd rather have a service which has a small scope (one instance etc.), but does it well than Matrix which tries to encompass the whole universe, but does none of it well (in my experience).

@sesivany @ebassi @mathieu @wjt tbh if it has a decent native (GNOME?) client then I'd rather use Telegram than Rocket. Same diff otherwise.

@mjog @ebassi @mathieu @wjt
The client is written in Qt, but it's well integrated with GNOME, at least the version in Flathub. We use it for testing Qt integration with GNOME/Flatpak. It uses portals, native notifications and dialogs, it's sandboxed. But yeah, it's not GTK.
There is some attempt to develop a GTK client, too, but I don't think it's viable. Telegram develops so rapidly that no full-featured 3rd party client can keep up with the pace.

@mathieu @ebassi @wjt Fractal's not perfect but I'll take that over a web app masquerading as a desktop app anyway. Same with Matrix, it's definitely not perfect, but at least it's not a disaster waiting to happen.

@mjog I'm of the opinion that Matrix is a disaster which is already happening. 🤷‍♂️

@ebassi @wjt

@mathieu @ebassi @wjt A lesser disaster than moving to yet another freemium product. What next, replace Builder with VSCode? Hey at least it's open source!

@mjog why would there be a next step?

Also, how is Gitlab OK for you if Rocket Chat isn't?

@ebassi @wjt

@mathieu @ebassi @wjt Less of an attempt at a slippery slope argument and more of an attempt to illustrate commercial open source software isn't a good look for libre projects. :)

Anyway, I'm not fine with using Gitlab and begging for scraps from Gitlab Co like we currently do, especially given that their CEO has stated they are happy to take money from fascists, but I don't know know of a better alternative at the moment. Still, one misfortune isn't a good excuse to get into another.


On the other hand there is already fractal a native Matrix client by Gnome…

I mean, I'm just saying that why build a client for a different protocol, when you could just use a well worked existing client from your own project that can check all/most boxes?

@mjog @mathieu @wjt

@mjog This feels like a poor excuse for deprecating IRC though. If anything, sending people to forums instead of IRC would be more of a solution (and more friendly for search)

@jalcine Yeah I don't disagree. Would like to set up Discourse for support requests, which would be the primary point of contact for support.

@mjog I'm a bit disappointed with the cargo culting of Matrix in so many spaces too

@jalcine Yeah, I'm not even sure why it exists given IRC and XMPP have been around for ages. I asked the developers once and it seems that the reasons are 1) it'll be serverless in the future (maybe?) 2) federation is hard and 3) reading specs is hard:

/me shrugs

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