@kingu_platypus_gidora this is disingenuous; they DID add value to the world.

The world of business.

They used their technology to become *the* premier marketing and customer research platform.

The side effect of easily finding your friends and family was is valuable to millions of people.

Shit on them all you want, but don't lie. We have many things because of their technology we would not have otherwise. They provide an experience and platform (with mobile apps) that cost billions of dollars of investment. Open source and open protocols could not have competed.

One Facebook/Twitter/Instagram app will always be more refined than dozens of alternatives by volunteers. This stuff is hard to get right, and many rich features require a lot of compute power.

We could not have competed in 2010, but we can probably compete in the 2020s.

@feld What makes you so sure open source and open protocols could not have competed?

@kingu_platypus_gidora Because you have to pay people a competitive wage so they can focus on building something really good.

Open source happens three ways:

1. Volunteers in whatever little free time they have

2. Sponsored development by a company, because that company also wants the tech to improve

3. A company open sourcing something they've already built


1. is not going to produce great results

2. is unlikely because obviously the companies with the desire to build such a thing BUILT IT FOR THEMSELVES

3. didn't happen, unlikely to happen


E-Mail has been around for what, almost 60 years at this point? It started in the 1960s.

Who provides the *best* email experience? Something that billions of non-technical people want to use. Is it open source? No. It's probably:

- GMail
- Yahoo
- Outlook/MSN

If they're technically savvy, it could maybe be FastMail.

None of these are open source. All of these provide rich experiences someone has poured millions or billions of dollars into.

What's your open source counterpoint? SquirrelMail? RoundCube? Zimbra? What a joke.

It's been 60 years and open source can't even compete in the e-mail space which is much easier than social media, and now that we probably have the tools to do so: nobody cares anymore because email is dying.

You forget that someone has to pay the server bill for the infrastructure. Someone has to pay for the backups. Someone has to pay for the search cluster. Someone has to pay for the compute nodes that transcode media.

Open source does not solve these infrastructure problems, it just foists them onto the lap of the end user. Grandma's not gonna setup ElasticSearch.

@feld

Interesting,

So you think that the taking over of the software market by capitalists entities was, in the end, a good thing?

If, let's suppose, the free software movement - that was already in place - was the one who took over software development for the years to come

Would our current softwares be worst?

@kingu_platypus_gidora I don't think capitalism's place in this ecosystem it's inherently good or bad. It just is. Sometimes great things come out of it, sometimes we have to deal with their quest for profit being against our own values.

Now, if the world was one big socialist/communist society this might be a different conversation. Then we would have the people with the skills able to spend all of their productive time and energy building what we need.

That's one of the biggest issues: there are people out there who are exceptionally skilled and make major contributions to open source, but then disappear. Because they need to pay their bills, so they take another job, run out of free time, have a life/family that competes with their hobby.

I've seen this time and time again: brilliant minds capable of building things only a select few on the planet could because they have the right combination of skills, knowledge, and experience -- and they disappear, because ENOTIME.

I knew the guy who built all the database tools for Skype way back before Microsoft acquired them:

http://highscalability.com/skype-plans-postgresql-scale-1-billion-users

He had a terrible liver disease and could not leave his home. I haven't heard from him in years, but I'm pretty sure he's dead now, probably died in his mid 30s. He had no healthcare access. He was an open source zealot. But society didn't give him the opportunity to get healthy and continue to produce value for humanity.

Truthfully, socialized healthcare and UBI in the USA would make hackerspaces explode and the open source community would flourish because people wouldn't have to fear for their own lives, future, health, family, wellbeing, etc, and could focus on their passions. (Small businesses would explode in growth, too)
@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora As to email, as some one who knows the field well, I honestly would not describe the interfaces provided by any of those three as rich nor any of those as exactly featureful or capable.

Honestly roundcube+postfix+dovecot+spamassassin beats all three of those hands down.
@vvelox @kingu_platypus_gidora How good is Roundcube's search? How fast is it? Does this stack allow for auto-categorization of emails through analysis of the contents? How well does it work on mobile? Since when did SpamAssassin get better at categorizing spam than GMail?

Following up on that: I know GMail has a lot of issues lately with tagging messages as spam it should not, but you cannot change the fact that the system with the most data will always win.

Gmail has the most data. It can learn of spam campaigns faster than your SpamAssassin ever could. You have to wait for the rulesets to get published by volunteers, then you have to download them and apply them. You can't even apply them retroactively on the inboxes of all your user accounts.

GMail can do this. You'll never be able to.
@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora I can only imagine you screwed something up in the setup. :/

I've managed email for a ISP before and have dealt with it at managed hosting. SA worked reliable for both.

It is fast as fuck when it comes to searching. One of the big reasons I use dovecot it is very fast and will handle very large maildirs. As to the later I've honestly not seen anything else yet that compares to being able to handle large dirs any where near as well as dovecot and roundcube or claws-mail. The runner up is Horde.

As to auto-categorization is a non-standard shitty hack for their half assing their client/server and not supporting SIEVE.

Also when did it recently have issues tagging spam? It's never been good at it to begin with, especially when

As to rulesets, SA can auto-update those. There is also bayesian filtering etc.

The big thing when it comes to spam filtering is not spamassassin, but postfix. RBLs handle nearly all the heavy lifting.

Dovecot actually deals very nicely with mobile devices. Although you really should not be using default Android mail client as it really has broken IMAP support, or did last I looked.

Also you can completely apply SA to any thing currently stored. Maildir++ is easy to work with. Although from a administrative perspective this a very bad idea of something to do unless you have a specific request from a user to do so.
@vvelox @kingu_platypus_gidora Everything you're telling me about SA I know and you're wrong, it's terrible. The only good open source spam filter is rspamd, not SA.

> As to the later I've honestly not seen anything else yet that compares to being able to handle large dirs any where near as well as dovecot and roundcube or claws-mail. The runner up is Horde.

Well, you're wrong there as well because the only IMAP server that can handle large dirs properly is Archiveopteryx, https://aox.org. You want a folder with 20 million emails? Works fine. Everything else chokes unless you throw a ton of hardware at it. And it's the fastest at downloading emails/folders when a new client connects for the first time, too.
@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora Not sure what to tell you. Always been very reliable for me. :/ One of the major things is being use to use a DB backend for the bayesian filtering. The file backend can be finicky under heavy usage.

20M in a single folder? That is a bit crazy. If one has that many in a single folder it nearly certainly means it is a badly organized. I have over 20.3M between all my folders and off hand the largest one I could find was ~160k.

As to hardware, it really does not require much for all that. Dovecot uses index and cache files so it works rather nicely with out having to chew threw it all.
@vvelox @kingu_platypus_gidora I also forgot to tell you that Maildir sucks and you should stop using it. Very few filesystems can handle millions of messages in a single directory (ZFS being one of them), but even then you are at the limitations of POSIX filesystem access.

It's not good at this job. It was never meant for this. Linux/Unix reallllly hates dirs with an absurd number of files as the kernel/VFS is just not good at this and we've worked around it with actual databases.
@vvelox @kingu_platypus_gidora btw, I ran email for an ISP until 2013. I know this stack well. It sucked. Our customers left for GMail because it sucked.

@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora

"they DID add value to the world.The world of business. They used their technology to become *the* premier marketing and customer research platform"

Weird that you think this contradicts the OP

"Adding value to the business world" = making a small number of people rich at others' expense" = stealing value from the world at large

@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora In a capitalist system, making money almost always involves some stealing. That's the whole point. The value derived from all that personal data and marketing research? Never accrued to its true owners. That's the theft.

@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora that's without mentioning the nefarious uses to which that data was out which in turn actively harmed a bunch of people

@SallyStrange @kingu_platypus_gidora if your goal is to ensure nothing in the internet will ever harm anyone the only answer is to destroy the internet

@feld @kingu_platypus_gidora how about if we aim for less harm but keep the internet? Or are we only allowed to talk in black/white binaries where there's either maximal harm or none at all?

@SallyStrange @kingu_platypus_gidora every time a new technology is adopted by society we do this song and dance. It sounds like you want H.R. 666 - Minority Report Future Crimes Protection Act
@SallyStrange Just wanted to reach out and say I'm not looking to make an enemy over this; I just think it's disingenuous to paint capitalism (tech, specifically) as some evil monster that has zero redeeming qualities.

A mess has been made. Some fantastic things have been invented. Not necessarily the platforms, but the tech behind it solving some very interesting scalability problems. This stuff would have never been created if the problem was never encountered, and it was encountered because the platform was a giant silo.

We need to do better in government. The last 20 years have been nothing but conflict. No real forward-thinking progress has been made to ensure society is protected in lockstep with the technology being created. We'll always have legislation running behind technology, but it shouldn't have taken this long to wake politicians up. We've spent way too much time pointing fingers over guns and abortions and not enough time fixing inequalities and protecting citizens/users.

We can do better, and it starts with voting out the old guard who are so technically inept it's a tragedy.

Have a good night, and I hope to see you around on the 'verse.
You signed up for a free service and expected what? Who do you think is keeping the lights on?

If you're not paying for a service you are the product. We've known this since Hotmail launched in 1996.

There is nothing illegal about what Facebook or Google or Twitter have done here, but due to the immense amount of personal data idiots have uploaded to these services we should have data privacy laws and with the crazy amount of money they are making we should do some wealth redistribution and make them pay is a dividend for the data they're profiting off of. This doesn't mean death to capitalism; this is government doing what it's supposed to do by keeping capitalism in check

@feld who is this "we" who knew these things? Billions of people have been born since 1996. Is someone teaching this to the children? And I am using a free service where I am not the product currently.

@SallyStrange what "free service" are you using where you're not the product?
@kingu_platypus_gidora He did not crush any revolution. The competition died in the 1990s as all the competing companies had massively incompetent management.

Basically Microsoft really dodged a bullet there as every single one of their competitors or would be competitors at the time were capable of putting out better products.

The company that was really in the best position to crush them utterly was Comodore, but they utterly bumbled the ball with the Amiga and focusing nearly entirely on the home entertainment market among other bad choices.

Then after that/around the same time IBM was in a damn fine position to do so with OS/2 but they really bungled marketing.

@kingu_platypus_gidora the capitalist idea of creating value is just the tumblr infinite chocolate bar trick for adults

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@kingu_platypus_gidora

Spicy. And true, although this post might attract techbros.

@kingu_platypus_gidora didn't just destroy it, he stole it, as there's good evidence that the original DOS was basically just stolen code from CP/M

@kingu_platypus_gidora what I find really frightening is how unabashedly certain these accusations sound. All of these cases are more nuanced in important ways than they're made to look. But yeah, let's just hate people by default for mostly just being lucky?

@isagalaev

When you are "Just being lucky" there is a decision you have to make.

become a decent but very rich human being

or

become a billionaire asshole

@kingu_platypus_gidora agreed. I only mentioned it as a wrong reason for hatred. My main argument is that their "evilness" is at least nuanced. An while I'm not going to be a Zuckerberg's apologist in particular, with Gates that sentiment you quoted really grated against my perception. If he didn't invent/stumble upon a way to make money from programming (no matter how unfair) there wouldn't be a software revolution at all. Programming would remain a thing for geeks and defense contractors.

@kingu_platypus_gidora and again, there's a lot to debate. But that "he just used free software and made everyone pay for it" is plain wrong. There weren't usable software at that point to begin with. A thing like, say, a Free spreadsheets editor would never exist.

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@kingu_platypus_gidora Is this dude on the fediverse yet? Seems like a good time for him to mic drop and move here.

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