My account at jabber.fsfe.org is not longer connecting using . The tech doc wiki.fsfe.org/TechDocs/XMPP says "Some users reported SSL connection problems while using Pidgin with the GnuTLS library" and links to a ticket that was opened 12 years ago and closed 10 years ago developer.pidgin.im/ticket/445 and I'm thinking perhaps that's another reason why I don't like XMPP.

@kensanata
Do you receive any particular error? If there is a problem with the certificate it should get fixed, obviously.

I fail to see how it's XMPP's problem if someone sets up a service with invalid certs.

@mattj my point is that this is yet one more property of XMPP that makes it brittle and degrade the user experience. It’s not XMPP’s problem if you assume that nobody makes mistakes in an environment where you are invited to make a ton of mistakes. My point is that “an environment where you are invited to make a ton of mistakes” is the problem.

@kensanata
And what is your suggestion? What exactly is it that you think could be improved?

@mattj I think there are two options:
1. Replace it
2. Hide it
Regarding option two: provide a debian package that sets everything up just right including getting and renewing certificates and doing updates in the background, for a well-specified set of features. Basically: nothing is optional or configurable except the most basic things. Including website and links the one multi platform mobile client. Strong branding.

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@mattj basically: think of how GTalk and WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger got started (and not how they ended). That part just worked. Then make it easy to decentralize. I like where @aral’s Site.js is going with respect to true 360° usability.

@kensanata @aral @mattj This is the thing people miss about Signal. It's not federated and fully free software because that would have made it impossible to meet user experience expectations in a timely manner.

meta.ath0.com/2018/08/on-trust…

I tried using XMPP, really I did, but as soon as I started trying to get end-to-end encryption working across multiple devices it was an absolute dumpster fire. Perhaps the answer is to bundle up XMPP and a bunch of XEPs and call it XMPP 2.0.

@meta
"Bunch of XEPs" is kinda part of what modernxmpp.org is. Except XEPs are not enough... usability goes beyond protocols.
@kensanata @aral

@meta
@kensanata @aral @mattj

I really hope matrix makes it and (in a brilliant and unlikely future) mainstream platforms will implement it.

@aral @kensanata @mattj @petre Well, as long as it's an open standard it might succeed regardless.

@meta @kensanata @mattj @petre Yeah, email did and Google exerts no control over that… ;)

@aral @meta @kensanata @mattj
Google has a lot of power over email, but Facebook has complete power over Whatsapp. Many people (most?) use gmail, but I can use something else and still talk to them.
These differences are very important.

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