Instead of making everybody take Computer Literacy, make anyone who wants to be a programmer take People Literacy

Part of computer literacy is not just "where are the buttons", but the equivelant of "books are made of paper and have to be made of paper for economic and logistical reasons".

Why isn't everything the same port?
Why can't i plug in random usb?
What is mounting?
Why can't my computer auto-mount?
Why do i have to specify what keyboard it is?

@jalefkowit Needs to be an ASD friendly course… half of us are on the spectrum. Different problem entirely…

@gargron No! That’s my point — we expect people to contort themselves to fit the computer, but it should be the computer contorting itself to fit them.

The more “computer literacy” people have to have to use a computer safely and productively, the more we have failed to put the person before the tool.

@jalefkowit i'd clarify that: both are currently needed, but we should aim for zero need for computer literacy

unfortunately i don't think that's realistic (but yes we should try)

@sty @jalefkowit Asking for no-computer-literacy-needed computers from extremely-computer-literate people historically doesn’t lead us to Englebart’s Violin, though. It leads us to the iPads that are about as computationally empowering as a Fisher-Price child’s pretend phone.

@jalefkowit @Gargron

Yeah. There's a difference between knowing which end of a frypan to pick up vs. having to know the entire 3,000-year history of frypans in order to fix breakfast properly.

@xenophora @jalefkowit @gargron but then if you want to do more than just fix a quick breakfast, your may need to inform yourself a bit more on materials and how heat and food interact to cook something more sophisticated...

Seems original comments(s) wasn't included in the reply. What was this in response to please?

@jalefkowit @Gargron Unfortunately the people who create closed, exploitative ecosystems were very successful in enticing the illiterates.

...and all the societies are very much behind on creating adequate protections since they left the field to the "computer literates".

analogy: the more "circular saw literacy" people have to have to use a circular saw safely and productively the more we have failed to put the person before the tool.

the tools of computing are the compiler and the interpreter.

what distinguishes a computing device from an information appliance is this question of programmability: If the person operating it can change its behavior sufficiently, they are programming it. If not, not.

So the question is, what sort of power should the user have?

If the environment in which they work is Turing complete--and given the complexity of our worldwide networked computing environment this premise usually holds--then it is programmable, whether they know what that means or not, whether they are competent to navigate that reality or not.

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this but people continue try to dodge it: Computing presents a profoundly Promethean dilemma.

We want the power of programmability but are not prepared for the suffering that getting it brings.

I wish people could be spared this suffering, too, but wishing doesn't cut it.

Does 'informed consent' mean anything to you in this context, and if so, what, then?

@idlestate that's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure I understand you correctly; can you elaborate a bit in what you mean by "the suffering that programming/programmability brings"?


Thanks for asking.

I'll try not to overcomplicate this, but I have in mind suffering at two levels.

The first seems pretty simple to me: @jalefkowit seems to think it an unacceptable imposition to expect people to learn anything about the tools they use. So, whatever the type and degree of that imposition, let that stand in here for what I call "suffering".

(I don't entirely disagree with his sentiment, it's more a question of degree and in how to talk about the relationships involved.)

At the second, broader level, the suffering I have in mind is all the ways that computing clearly goes wrong, whether minor bugs in programs all the way up to "oops your life savings has just been wired to North Korea" and "oops many marginalized people have been convinced not to vote or to vote against their interests via targeted ads".

As part of that latter category I include some of the notions, as best I understand them, of the language-theoretic security efforts.

Since this reply is long enough as it is I'll leave off expanding on the langsec angle for now beyond mentioning it.

@idlestate @lizzard A good response! I would just pick one nit:

"@jalefkowit seems to think it an unacceptable imposition to expect people to learn anything about the tools they use."

It's more that, in my experience as a communicator, if you want to make people think about an idea, the way to do that is to express it in its strongest, sharpest form. You don't necessarily expect that to be the form the idea actually takes when it's ramified into law or procedure or whatever. But at the beginning, you're not worried so much about that as you are about getting people to really interrogate their own feelings about it. And the more qualifications and caveats and cavils you lard the idea down with, the less likely they are to do that.

Some will object that this means the goal is to make the idea provocative, and I would reply, yes! I want to provoke you to think about it. That is literally my entire goal.

And if the length of this thread is any indication, I appear to have succeeded 😆​

@jalefkowit @Gargron I kind of agree that we should make computer people think more about users, on the other hand, I have this vague feeling that making computers too easy to use might also be damaging: I think it would be helpful if people had a better sense of what it's possible to do with a computer and what not.; if people had a better grasp of what computers are good at and what they are not good at.

@Scmbradley @jalefkowit @Gargron It's complicated. I do all the tech support for my family and I see endless damage caused by a lack of basic understanding on how they work.

But when I try to gently educate them to make their lives easier in the future I get the brush-off, "That's nerd stuff, I just want to use it, not understand it."

They've trained me - mostly I just fix them now, without bothering to explain anything. 🤷

@bgardner @Scmbradley @gargron Yeah, nothing made today really takes this idea seriously. There's always the expectation that there will be someone technically-minded around to fill the gaps. And if the user isn't technically-minded, that work gets passed on to someone who is.

(Having been the designated "tech support guy" in my own family for decades now, I feel your pain 😆​ )


This. I am very annoyed with the current trend (hype cycle is a bit over) of "Digital Transformation".

Such a wrong choice of words. Transform? Who? Why? Going digital for the sake of doing so.

Meanwhile my poor old parents are completely lost with all the digital garbage thrown at them, where they are supposed to manage their *everything* now.

@jalefkowit @Gargron I actually disagree here. Not that I want to defend the opposite point of view, either, but...

We take about 1-2 years of school to teach the basics of writing. That's not so much grammar and spelling (formal language), but mastering the tool enough to reproduce letters.

We wouldn't dream of handing a circular saw over to anybody without instructions.

Driving, while very low barrier, still requires a license.

Part of that is just risk...

@jalefkowit @Gargron ... management for sure.

But part of it is that any tool takes time to learn how to use.

Why should computers be any different?

Why should they be easier to master when they have infinitely more applications than a hammer?

Expecting people to pick up a computer and get to work with it without prior knowledge is an amazing goal! It's also orders of magnitude beyond what we expect people to do with other tools.

@jalefkowit I think literacy is about agency. If people couldn't count, how would they know that employers pay them what they deserve, and landlords don't charge more than they're owed? Computer literacy is the same. When we get a generation of people who don't know what files are, we also get a generation of people who don't know that things can be copied, owned instead of rented, pirated, and who does that benefit? But at least they didn't have to learn anything about computers...

@Gargron @jalefkowit
How this sounds from the bleachers:

J: we shouldn't teach civics, we should teach civility.

E: Civics are undertaught.

J&E: The benefits of each are desired.

My unrequested take:

A; Data civics is an integral component of an educated population in the digital society we find ourselves.

B: HCI continues to slowly adapt.

Both could/should be improved & given higher focus.

Interestingly, decrying the loss of common knowledge of the File metaphor to this generation makes me all but snicker at how well point b is breezing right on past point a.


I think the point about the "not knowing what a file is" is not that computing design or interface metaphors should not change, but that these devices they are using still use files, and they still have to be copied from device to device.

But the interface is intentionally designed to keep the user ignorant of this, and to remove their control over the process.

Someone HAS that control. It just isn't you, anymore.

@Gargron @jalefkowit

@mrcopilot @Gargron @jalefkowit

I guess, to make the automotive comparison, it's a bit like going from "automatic transmissions" (removing a degree of control useful in very few situations, except to very experienced professional drivers) to "self-driving cars" (removing almost all control over the vehicle, except destination -- assuming no one else figures out how to hijack it, which you KNOW is coming).

Every digital transition is a renegotiation of power.

@TerryHancock @mrcopilot @gargron That last sentence needs to be engraved in stone somewhere.

It's why I think the important thing is to establish principles, rather than focusing on implementations. The technology will always be changing. What you need to be concerned about is, is it changing in ways that respect my principles? Or that undermine them?


Well. I value openness, user control/freedom, ease of learning, and erasure of barriers to those.

So, the most exciting UI trend for me was seeing the idea in the "Sugar" OS and "Blender 2.5+" of adding API documentation/access to UI widgets.

I think Sugar does this in a more complete way, but I've never actually used it, just watched a demo. Blender just added API help to tool tips.

@mrcopilot @Gargron

@jalefkowit @mrcopilot @Gargron

One flaw I'd like to see corrected is that Blender's tooltip API help favors the "ops" library over "objects", leading to a "verb oriented"/"procedural style", when it's often smarter or more powerful to use the "noun oriented"/"object oriented" approach in code.

But I'm really not sure how to do that. Unless maybe we brought back the OOP view in Blender and added the API help to that? (OOP was a node&link graph of Blender objects available in 2.4, IIRC).

@jalefkowit @mrcopilot @Gargron

IIRC, Sugar used a special widget and/or the "gear" key to retrieve the code for what you're looking at.

Seemed a cool idea. Of course it was targeted at OLPC, but I wondered what it'd be like to bring that to mainstream Linux desktop environments.

I do get a little tired of the choice between "knock off MS Windows" and "knock off Mac" that seem to be what designers are aiming for.

@TerryHancock @mrcopilot @gargron Sounds a little like some of the ideas in TempleOS:

(Of course it's hard to say for certain what the *intention* of anything in TempleOS is, because its sole author was deeply mentally ill, and died in 2018. All we can judge is the execution.)

@jalefkowit @mrcopilot @Gargron

I think means exist to do this now.

IIRC, you can create your own "node editor" in Blender with Python and make your own defined nodes and links.

And you can use the API to interrogate the object structure of your document, so it should be possible to write an extension that represents the whole document as a node tree and lets you edit the links.

But I don't know if I'd have time for such a project. Just one of those things I muse about sometimes.

@gargron I can respect this point, but I think it carries its own danger: that we see being safe online as something that only the computer literate are entitled to. ("If you didn't want to get ripped off, why didn't you pay attention in computer class?")

We don't have that expectation for things like numeracy. Being numerate is definitely HELPFUL for avoiding getting ripped off, but it's not the only layer of defense against it -- there's a whole system of laws and regulations designed to identify and punish employers who short-change their workers, landlords who overcharge their tenants, etc. (It doesn't always work, but that's a different conversation.)

There is a similar potential problem with making computer literacy about implementation details, like what a file is. It's entirely possible to imagine a computer without a filesystem (and many have). Would principles like ownership, right to copy, etc. not apply there? Of course they'd apply; they'd just have to be implemented in ways that make sense in that environment. But the important thing is the principle of ownership, not the way it was implemented.

@jalefkowit @Gargron

For an alternative perspective:

when it comes to the relationship between humans and the other powerful and dangerous machines in our lives - automobiles - the expectiation is VERY DEFINITELY that humans MUST learn "road literacy" at a very young age, must learn the complex and non-intuitive language of signals and crosswalks, and if they run across the road and are struck by a car, well, it's bad, but they brought that upon themselves and the driver is not at fault.

@jalefkowit @Gargron

Not saying necessarily that the human-automobile relationship is necessarily correct, but, that there's a strong precedent for this kind of "let the user beware" situation, and computers didn't fall out of nowhere into an agrarian civilization that knew nothing about machines.

I'd go further and say that this isn't even a machine thing: in hunter-gather civilization, there's an even *stronger* expectation that humans just have to respect the jungle, because it's there.

It must be both, computer literacy for everyone and ethics/UX/... for programmers. Computers are an infrastructure you should be able to use. This is obviously not going as well as it should and it seems logical to tackle this from more than one side.


This was basically the mantra of Apple for a generation, and the end result is the iPhone corporate control and tracking device that robs the user of all agency without extraordinary measures to "jailbreak" it (which might be some kind of "crime" in some places where the corporation can make it so?).

So... I've come to a deep distrust of this design philosophy.

I mean, I understand the urge. But there's a difference between simplifying and hiding complexity, I guess.


@TerryHancock @gargron See, this is a place where I think you have to look past the marketing language to see what's really going on.

You are correct that Apple's marketing language has always been about empowerment. But the Apple that produced the iPhone is the Apple of Steve Jobs, and Steve Jobs was, let's not mince words here, an elitist. The iPhone is perhaps the most perfect expression of his philosophy, which was that computers could reach perfection if we could just keep filthy humans from touching them.

But that doesn't mean that simplicity necessarily implies elitism. There are other approaches. The original Palm devices, for instance, struck a much more user-friendly balance, while retaining a simplicity of use that nothing today can really match.

That is what I want people to think about -- how can we make things simple, without abandoning the principles we care about?

@jalefkowit just ask yourself if you'd like to use a computer that's designed for the base level of human intelligence.
because that's what you're suggesting.

@jalefkowit I should say that I agree about programmers being required to know more than programming.

@jalefkowit I agree about the "People Literacy" part, and probably a "Society Literacy" part (or community etc.).

At the same time we don't expect people to walk into a workshop without having some lessons in what tools do and how to use them safely, right?

But I suppose it depends on your view of the use of a computer. But no matter how simplified you make something, as far as I see, everything around us requires some training. It's fascinating watch my kiddo learn how to use things. :)

@jalefkowit Education and teaching to the test focuses far too much on stuffing facts into our brains and regurgitating them. Yes, we do need some facts, but we also need to learn how to learn, and developing social skills is very important. Also, media literacy so you can recognize when you're being manipulated. Computer literacy is then part of media literacy - as @cstanhope said, know your tools at least a little bit, and having a wide range of tools at your disposal is a good thing.

@jalefkowit @cstanhope @mikolaj One thing I liked about my computing science course at uni was that they made us take classes about the social context of what we were doing - you're never just programming, you always have a target audience, and you need to think about how what you're programming will affect your target audience. They tried to make us aware of issues like: If your employer wants you to program something to spy on our work colleagues, will you comply or speak up?

@gunchleoc I am glad to hear your courses brought up these topics. I struggled in college with some of these issues because the only ethics topics I recall revolved around being a "good professional engineer". Being honest and truthful. Doing the work you said you would do. etc. But did not touch equally important topics like should you even be doing the work that is being requested of you. Or even just emphasize your work affects other people and not just your paying customer.

@cstanhope Being honest and truthful is also very important, but of course not enough. I'm sorry you didn't have a better curriculum. I'm glad that I went to a general-purpose uni instead of a purely STEM one. The German system also used to give you leeway to pretty much attend any class you liked, as long as you could financially afford the time. And you always have to take a minor subject too - philosophy or law might have been a good fit for you.


oh no! That article omits my favorite part of the Waxman-Greenspan exchange!

Waxman was sort of badgering Greenspan along the lines that it was bad to have had an ideology at all, to which Greenspan replied that an ideology is simply a world view, a way of seeing the world.

Not only is not wrong to have one, we all have one!

It's just that his was flawed (and that's probably where Waxman might have better dug in--the problem wasn't that he had an ideology, or that it was flawed, but that he was so confident that it was correct to begin with and was given such power to work from that overconfidence!).


@idlestate @praxeology A fascinating point! You got me to track down the video of that part of the exchange, which is here:

I think we English-speakers are a bit disadvantaged here, as we have no word analogous to what the German philosophers called "Weltanschauung" (usually translated as "world view," though that doesn't get at it 100% either). So "ideology" gets pressed into situations where it's not a great fit either.

I see Greenspan's argument as an example of this. An ideology is more than a world view; it goes beyond just observing how the world is, to making an assertion about how the world *should be*. Everyone has a Weltanschauung, but not everyone has an ideology.

I think that's what Waxman was getting at. He was pressing Greenspan to admit that, when his ideology stopped aligning with the observable facts of the world around him, he chose to hold on to the ideology. Which is the whole danger of ideology -- it's healthy as long as you keep it tethered to reality, but when that tether is broken, it can be tempting to decide the problem is not with the ideology (which always seems beautiful, because it accords with your own preferences) but with reality.

@praxeology @jalefkowit Great quote in the article: "The future of politics will depend, in large part, on how the current generation of technologists approaches its work. That is their burden whether they like it or not."

- James Susskind

TLR;DR All people are needed (...above and below any line or margin)... So "both" is my answer! Yes!... 

@jalefkowit Thanks for link. So "both" is my answer! Yes!

TLR;DR All people are needed (...above and below any line or margin)

More people available means the range of simpleton to technical can be served in multiple ways (that they might not expect)... together! And this social glue or practise is what is less trained and just less visible (which we can make more visible and more a priority even as token gesture e.g 30mins per week with someone random like me or those even less measurable !).

People in the middle (not too simple or too entrenched in their work) are PERFECT to bridge both sides and without trying to convert anyone totally (just be yourself)... so the level below and above can still be "team-building" without trying to sound like we're all selling it to each other and while still being fun.
Less resistance is needed to giving away time (again just 30mins or 2x15mins with a random) just to let go about how much it's a waste of time or measuring time too purely... just "invested time" to share a it of perspective, to learn, explain, explore technical parts and prioritise practising the people practise no matter what the flavour. Either way both yin and yang are actually needed and part of the same whole that spins the other strange as that may seem!.



In sports those in the middle CONSISTENTLY help those above and below their 'belt' for different types of training and IMPORTANTLY they have the TIME *and* MOTIVATION to enjoy being partners (to any level or belt)... to be test subjects for sparring with the experts (i.e how to be more human with more types of people as many experts stink when too competitive or specialist), or being patient with the newbies (increasing awareness to normies toward something more than they started with)...

Usually experts in sports have 0 time for the above or even less tolerance for them!
I guess this might equal to a developer not answering some messages (though many do answer a lot but let's face it it does to be 'selective' in answering of things though can get to a point where it's overly-selective answering to the point it's ignoring)

Planned time to chat to others lower than their belt even as a group helps people feel accepted and radiation / hope increased, otherwise almost opposite happens and distance is increased (or anger, frustration festers)... and unless people are sometimes *made* to "put in the time" (allocated even as token gesture to the scene like book signing events) then they will not do it (to their own detriment eventually).

This is a Social Movement as in this short paragraphy under: Philosophy_and_activism

For a movement to have all wheels rolling it needs everyone spinning the web around BigTech or BigIndustry to slow that stuff down AND ALSO SOCIALLY ATTACK with our strengths like annoying ants with a variety of abilities! But can't expect a few devs to do it all - that shouldn't be the way for a whole movement to change, logically it will need everyone so might as well start now the forever meetings and rotate people!

It's almost these micro-management things or opportunities which will eventually win and binds us together for rolling punches, and yeah also sometimes we want to a piece of respect to say " yeah I spoke to that person once and wasn't so bad even though we disagreed" so we are not be so polarised by lack of contact - just being heard - "He heard me at least and that was enough")

So that is how I think it work. I think I'm a black belt in this as it's not classically trained as job (I'm here for sharing, caring and WIN:WIN/WIN-ALL)
So there is not always a sport for sharing... instead call it "Sapience" to bypass these sporting metaphors. Sapience is what is going to kill off all other competitive, divisional, self-inflicting things as we will be much more aware what is the long-term goal and stronger as people to say no / yes to stuff while specialists can still do their thing. Yes would help if they showed up in the lower ranks... and giving time to lower ranks helps use spread it all but more consciously.

Feel free to use my stamina, motivation or ideas (so not everyone just me as a test)...
I'm sure some have appreciated it so here some measurable evidence to start your motivation... but remember people work (or even 'social engineering') is also not as visible as a web page or link (I'm a human, so do try the warmer human way first! I can respect boundaries, just not the text-only kind if you want a human movement to work for you and for themselves).

Thanks for your time, it's incremental investment of the social kind so stay in touch at least with a 1 or 2 (like me for for example) not saying everyone! (...though eventually it is possible like container passing on the spirit to others!)

@jalefkowit That does not prevent programmers from exploiting people's tech illiteracy for their own/company's profit.


Making computer systems to work with people seems to be pretty hard.

I, being somewhat computer literate, often get super confused by systems that try to "simplify things". But I often find that people I know that don't understand computers are confused by them too.

@billyjoebowers This is absolutely a danger. Simplifying complicated things turns out to be really hard, and can lead you to "simplify" the thing in a misguided way that in practice actually complicates it.

There's also the problem that people learn and think in different ways, so a thing that seems natural and intuitive to one can seem alien and baffling to another. (Lots of technology suffers from this -- the kind of people who gravitate towards jobs in tech are overwhelmingly people who think quantitatively and do well in subjects like math, which means they make stuff that works great for quantitative thinkers. But that's bad news if your brain doesn't work like that.)

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