More questions for cis guys: why *don't* you wear skirts? They're super practical garments (in some contexts anyway) very comfortable and work really well in the summertime. Like, I know why I don't... I've got so many old fears about being seen as the sissy or the tranny (fuck it: I've been called those slurs enough, I get to use them if I want), and feel like I've taken quite enough beatings for one lifetime already. I kind of assumed that was cis dudes worry too... But is that actually true?
@DialMforMara Not sure if I'm reading you right... Just to check: you're suggesting that the gendered "boys don't wear skirts" rule doesn't chafe so much for actual cisgender guys (whereas it's something that bugged me for years before I came out to myself), so it doesn't really seem like a thing worth bothering to push back against? Is that what you're saying? Seems reasonable.
@danielle No. I'm saying that if I, as a cis woman, have trouble with my thighs rubbing together and feeling uncomfortable when I wear a skirt on a hot day, I can only imagine how much more chafing happens when you have twice as many moving parts in that area. Or at least that that's the worry, given what a running joke chafing was among the boys in my high school marching band (and as a possible cause, the ones who had this problem tended to wear baggy shorts).
@danielle So it's not the rule that chafes. It's the actual skin. Is my theory. But other than that, I just suspect gender expectations.
@DialMforMara Ha! Awesome.
I could imagine that would be a problem for a lot of guys. I have tiny legs, so that never occurred to me. Literal chafing only happens in those situations where I feel socially obligated to tuck for the sake of politeness.
Somehow I'm embarrassed not to have thought of that possibility.
@danielle I don't think it's that explicit or extreme, but I think it sort of boils down to wanting to avoid being excluded from the benefits of masculinity as well as being a target or toxic masculinity. Where "target" isn't as specific as "called gay-as-a-slur" or whatever, but any sort of out-grouping that might materialize from other men.
I want to link in fragility, here. Like... because it diverges from the norm, even with unspecific negative effects, that divergence is enough for most people.
@benhamill Genuine question: do you think that "fragility" is really the right descriptor though? From my perspective it seems pretty rational. I've spent decades trying to hide who I am precisely to avoid being a target. Why was it considered a reasonable precaution when I was doing it as a closeted trans woman, but "fragile masculinity" when a genuine cis dude does it?
@danielle Yeah. This is a valid point. I think I deployed that wrong. It's only fragility if you think wearing a skirt might actually undermine your innate maleness (or whatever). Fragility isn't about what others do or say, is it. It's about what you fear might be true about yourself and other people saying, "Nice pink shirt dude," in a sarcastic way might invoke your fragility, but... Hmmm. This is somewhat complicated. Also parallels with white folks' reactions to race talk.
@benhamill I think that makes sense: if wearing a pink shirt undermines your own self concept and is unthinkable for that reason, that's fragility at work. If you're not personally worried about the shirt, but have reasons to fear ridicule, exclusion or violence from others, I think it's a valid thing no matter who you are. I certainly wouldn't be dressing the way I do if the dysphoria didn't feel even worse.
@danielle Yeah. That scans. Thanks for investigating this conversation. That distinction seems important and I definitely understand it better.
@danielle Cis/hetero man here. About two years ago I had a very similar thought and had a sudden urge to start dressing a little more feminine and to start wearing skirts. I settled on wearing kilts (and learned to sew them myself since they're fucking expensive) and never looked back. They are so goddamn comfortable and I wear them every day. I really want to get more men into it because it just feels so nice and a man in a skirt is
🔥 🔥
@danielle Some reasons I can think of as to why cis men don't wear skirts:
-Most women's clothes have small/nonexistent pockets, which is a crime against women everywhere, and probably a dealbreaker for most guys (it is for me)
-Feeling it's "too bold" of a fashion choice/not normalized enough for their gender
@danielle Also, part of it is the slow motion of men's fashion in general. Most of men's fashion consists of solid earth tones, and is generally pretty damn bland. Even v-neck shirts feel like a recent development, and a quick google search for "v neck shirt men's fashion" has a first page result for a Quora question asking if v-neck shirts are considered gay from as recently as 2016!
@danielle
And honestly, I would totally wear dresses if it was more socially acceptable for men to do so (and if I could find some that I could pull off.) I don't take offense to people thinking I'm gay or trans, especially considering I wear pretty feminine tops on a regular basis, paint my nails, and have been sporting a flower crown lately, but I feel like wearing a dress would very easily give people the wrong impression.
@danielle
I've been excited to hear about men's rompers trending lately, since it seems like it's hopefully not too far off from men's dresses becoming a thing.
Also I'm just realizing how much text I just barfed at you and I am very sorry!
@Pizzazz Heh. It's interesting to hear a line of thought so similar to my own but without the layer of anxiety that comes from actually being trans. It reminds me of when I was presenting a little femme back in the 90s, before I started thinking about gender identity. Apart from the awkward "false advertising" issue it never bothered me that people read me as a gay man... but the closeted gay guys I was hanging around with were a *lot* more worried about how they came across.
@danielle Well, it takes all kinds, I guess! 😄
Honestly, I probably owe a lot to the trans community in my area for laying the foundation that allows me be myself and to wear what I do without really having to worry about people harassing me about it. (Living in a liberal college town probably helps, too.) I can't even imagine what it must have been like for people even as little as ten years ago.
@Pizzazz @danielle I admit o never used a skirt or kilt, though I'd really like to (never did because I'm too lazy to go out of my way to go look after one), but I just wanted to say that if you lived in some cities in Brazil it's so hot you'd want even more that it became usual clothing for men, as for the whole society we can't look serious (for work) wearing short pants. Maybe the skirt would be a solution.
@danielle
There is a guy locally who wears a 'man skirt' even on days where it's too freaking cold. ;)
@danielle as a cis woman, my guess that isn't about gender expectations is chafing