police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

Remember that copyright is an intellectual restrictions law enforced through state violence.

Some tools like copyleft try to turn the machine's teeth against itself, but de-fanging should be the real goal.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber

i'm trying really hard to resist a de-faang-ing joke but this is as close as i got to not.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber
If you abolish copyright you also abolish FOSS licenses, as they are directly dependent on copyright law. Is that what you want?

No software licenses any more. I don't get that point of view. Open source licenses are good and you even use them yourself. Why do you want to remove them?

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa Before 1980 when software became copyrightable, there was more free software than ever; all code was in the public domain.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa If you had a choice, in 1980, between copyright being applicable to software or it not, which future would you choose?

Which one would be better for user freedom?

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber
So why do you use GNU on your MediaGoblin software instead of putting it in the public domain or CC0? That would be more user freedom by waiving your copyright.

I think copyright is a good and flexible system. People can use free licenses and give stuff away. Struggling artist, photographers, journalists, musicians and authors can get paid for their work.

Without copyright richest person always wins.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa Agree on the last part. Most of the software I see written before early 1980s was funded by universities or large corporations (the only ones with access to powerful machines) or done on home computers by hobbyists (who usually had other means of paying bills) for a small niche of likeminded, skilled enthusiasts. Little of this seems to apply to 2021 anymore. 😑

@cwebber

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa GNU isn't a license; I'm guessing you're asking why I used the GNU AGPL, a copyleft license. As said; I see copyleft as a tool to survive the current state of intellectual restrictions laws... not to justify them.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber Hmm, maybe you somehow got a point there.

But it feels like a weak one. I don't know what survival you speak about, but in my opinion it wouldn't be a difference between giving up your rights now, and living a potential future where you don't have any rights to begin with. In both scenarios people would just use your code as they wish and you have nothing to say about it.

I meant to write GPL

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa Again, I'm a copyleft supporter. But this is demonstrably not true: there are plenty of FOSS projects which are under non-copyleft licenses but which have a vibrant community of contributors and even are often able to pay their developers. Godot, for one example of many.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber
yes I agree that FOSS can work in a variety of settings. Both copyleft and permissive styles. I don't think that contradicts what I said so far.

The thing is that FOSS wouldn't exist if you abolish copyright so to me if feels weird to be a copyleft supporter at the same time as a copyright abolisher. You could easily just go public domain, or even MIT would be closer to no copyright than GPL.

But anyway, I got your point.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa Public domain *is* the absence of copyright.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa And I know full well about the role of copyright and licensing things. I used to work at Creative Commons and a lot of my work involved the ins and outs and compatibility of licensing.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa The assertion you make is more true in the opposite direction: there would mostly not be proprietary software without copyright.

There would still be a source/binary distinction; that's really as the GPL says "the preferred form for modification". But collaborating on source existed before software was copyrightable.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber
Yeah that makes sense, but remember tivoization and contracts and other means to "own" or control the code even though it doesn't have copyright

If a person want copyleft freedom for the code I believe it's much more long term protected inside the copyright system with a license, than if it has zero copyright. Without any copyright law it's all chaos and biggest person takes it and then controls it. But that's just my opinion

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@JohanEmpa To be fair, the expanded version of this is: "Abolish copyright and related intellectual restrictions laws".

It's true that without the full expansion, we have less tools.

police brutality, copyrighted works as a tool of supression 

@cwebber
I could perhaps support something like that if it happens in stages.

Say that we somehow find a sustainable way to introduce livable basic income with high material standard for everyone in the whole world. I believe that's possible with robots.

Then after that we can remove all restrictions on so called intellectual property.

Creativity could indeed explode in such a system.

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