As usual, @brainwane's writing on a complicated topic are clear, thoughtful, direct, and bring the receipts to the table: "Not The First Time We Tried (FSF, GNU, RMS, etc.)" https://www.harihareswara.net/sumana/2021/03/26/0
@cwebber
It's the thing that gets me with the support for RMS, You can point at this, and Bradley's and Matthew's posts and some folks will see it as a corporate conspiracy leading a mob. Rather than wonder if the environment drove people elsewhere. Nearly a week later and I'm still stunned at it happening and the way it was handled. If the FSF can't change then we need to move on.
@brainwane
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane Have you read this post? https://www.arp242.net/rms.html
It acknowledges there have been some mischaracterizations, analyzes them one by one, but still clearly identifies what *did* happen and comes to a conclusion about this decision to surprise-reappoint him and how it was clearly a bad idea.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
So from the outside because he has done alot in the past, while he was doing it his other behaviour was handwaved. Doesn't matter how it's happened, people have been made to feel unsafe, and unwelcome. Which for an organisation that is meant to be moral and for freedom is unforgiveable.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
What we also need to consider is that abuse isn't just creeping on women, it's how you treat people around, including when people you find useful aren't looking. I feel RMS is a reflection of his times in the 80s. He's a reflection of our culture and it's attude to what could be considered the less important. Those who haven't coded so their contribution is worth zilch.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
The point of the FSF is to fight for humanitys user freedoms. That includes asking someone who is unwilling to learn to change to not be around us. Because if he doesn't go, some folks will leave and we lose their contributions to furthering Free Software. You need the bridge to the outside world and our figureheads are our main bridge. We have to hold them to a higher account.
@onepict @acuteanniemay @brainwane I agree with everything you've said. The letter spoke in simplified and direct language, which can be valuable, and clearly got a powerful response... I support that approach. But I also understand how many people need to hear a post that speaks to, and breaks down, the specifics. Which is why I linked the forementioned one. (I don't agree with everything in it, and I would have chosen a different title, but I'm glad it is there.)
@cwebber
Yeah I think some respectful discussion is good in this. In any debate if you are on the extreme opposite side there's a futher path to being willing to see the oppositions POV. Plus it also excludes those in the middle who either don't want to take a side, or can't afford to take a side.
@acuteanniemay @brainwane
@clacke
I think it's a tricky minefield, language is very tricky and when you have a community that is multilingual it gets harder. After a certain period of time and signatures the text was also fixed otherwise its not the letter that folks signed anymore. I can also understand why people would defend RMS with this. But people can modify their behaviour to make their community and folks around them feel safer. Linus Torvalds did. Our leaders lead by example.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
@clacke @cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
But our leaders aren't gods and are only as good as the people around them are. It's why I say we have all been failed. RMS was failed decades ago by people willing and feeling they had to excuse his behaviour. This failure then rippled on to the rest of us, not just those feeling unsafe, but those emulating RMSs behaviour. We were failed and in turn failed each other. It's FLOSSs loss.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane Wow! That's a good writeup of the situation.
@be
Yes which is why the Open Source boob project came to mind. Plus some folk really don't understand the power dynamics of a leader in Free Software or back then, a wunderkind continually trying to pick up women. It's reducing us to base attraction. We aren't being seen as people, and it gets tiring batting away the continual attention. We know it's not for our brains.
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane
I think Stallman's behaviour can be characterized as misogyny, that's not excessive
When women publish reports about you, write on twitter they stayed away because of you, and you insist for 20 years, that means you don't give a damn what a category of people is saying
And that category of people is women
So no, sorry, social awkwardness doesn't cut it, here
there's not intent only. There are effects too
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane
I didn't read about ableism because I have enough of this
As for transphobia, sorry but that's not just a preference about linguistic issues
If you insist on a solution that no one else will adopt, when the rest of the world has settled on they/them, you are transphobic
Posting about trans right is free, especially for a person like him
Doing something is not free and he wasn't ready to do something
So, no, sorry. He was transphobic
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
the solution for not misgendering people should be one only
using several different ways of using gender neutral pronouns will make the whole thing unusable, impractical, in many cases a joke for the amusememnt of many morons who refer to him as an example.
it's a substantial sabotage of the effort
your linguistic preferences are not ore important of the actual well being of people
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
I could say: I would use gender neutral pronouns but I link zoomba/zoorba only
That would be a cruel joke
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
His preference was just an excuse for not giving the trans community the desire of establishing a more bearable language
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
when the world has settled on they/them, your insistence for something else that nobody will use is an excuse for not using they/them and thus misgendering people
and you'll give the excuse to the hoardes of morons who will refer to you as an example
it's not a matter of linguistic style
it's a substantial issue
it's not that hard
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
just use they/them
if you argue, you're being transphobic
I don't think the accusation against Stallman is serious. He clearly supports the actual well being of trans people, which as you said is more important, his wacky language reform ideas seems harmless eccentricity compared to that.
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
yes, you are being transphobic
not only because of your linguistic preferences
but because you write that this is harmless
it's not
@acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
and the reason why it's not was clear even before you asked for clarification
you are trying to hijack the discussion
@be
It's as much a power play on his part as well. He wants you to know he will call you what he wants to. Which is abusive.
@acuteanniemay @brainwane @cwebber @AbbieNormal
@AbbieNormal @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber Would you accept that argumentation for any other topic?
โif you argue, youโre being <something horrible>โ
@ArneBab @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
the choice about how to accomodate the issue is not for cisgender people
you know this even too well
@AbbieNormal @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber You forgot a verb. "is not for cisgender people to take" or "is not for cisgender people to discuss"?
The first demands decency: call people how they want to be called.
The second forbids people their voice.
@ArneBab @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
are you really arguing that the adoption of a linguistic solution they don't like will harm cisgender people as much as transgender people are harmed by the current language ?
@ArneBab @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
I'll paste something I've written already:
His preference was just an excuse for not giving the trans community the desire of establishing a more bearable language
@ArneBab @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
this is not a linguistic issue
the point of arguing is not language. It's not giving trans people what they ask
your distinction between making a chice and discussing it is bogus
and crying that some freedom is being infringed is outright ridiculous
@ArneBab @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber
oh and by the way it's not an original argument
I've run into this argument before
"so the nazifeminist and the integralists of the political correcteness want to take our lives away !!"
That's shameful, to say at least
what's so brutal in sticking to they/them ?
I'll tell you: nothing at all
if there's any freeedom at stake here it's not Richard Stallman's neither yours
@AbbieNormal @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane @cwebber this baseless aggression is doing you a massive disservice.
@ArneBab @AbbieNormal @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane Hey, could we cool it on this thread?
There is an accepted solution, so it's even worse: Per/perse is the next-level-arrogant "I solved my problem with your solution without consulting you, now accept my solution".
He doesn't intend it as disrespectful, he just doesn't realize that it is. But in effect yes, it is transphobic even if he intends to and thinks he empathizes with trans people.
@clacke
To me where the abuse comes in, is that he said to at least one individual that he would not respect their partners pronouns. Folk have been talking to RMS behind the scenes for years. He's unwilling to change because of that arrogance. It also sends a message that his opinion matters over everyone else's. FLOSS to me is about collaboration and that includes listening to others and respecting their opinions and identity. Leaders need to be able to do that.
@AbbieNormal
@AbbieNormal @cwebber @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane
It seems as if, sexual assault, harassment etc is a very serious issue, in the UK
@zleap
Well yes, it's been serious for a long time. Not just teachers, but pupils assaulting other pupils. In front of other pupils, it's an expression of power over someone else.
But the culture just handwaves the behaviour as boys will be boys. Just think about the type of person who does that and realise that some are adults now and have been for several decades.
@AbbieNormal @cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
@onepict @AbbieNormal @cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
While working at a school i had it the other way, kids shouting things like "fu**ing gayboy (multiple times, ) I was fobbed off 2with kids will be kids" and on another occasiion "Caretakers are fu**ing wan**ers" at me (or the caretaker I was with at the time), the latter resulted in said child being given suspension for a week, aka a week off school when told I said that is what he wants, so he won in some sense.
The problem is huge and has been getting worse
It is no wonder that people don't bother reporting stuff,
@zleap
It's just pointless sometimes. Which is why times like this we need to hold our leaders accountable for their actions and attitudes.
@AbbieNormal @cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
@onepict @AbbieNormal @cwebber @acuteanniemay @brainwane
And the so called 'experts' who advise them,
@cwebber @acuteanniemay @onepict @brainwane Thatโs the first I read which says clearly that rms was not appointed back as president, only taken back into the board.
And itโs wrong about the GNU system (I have a GNU system VM running on Guix โ GNU with Hurd instead of Linux). Fully Free Software is what I want.
Interesting is that quite some of the backlash against rms comes from the groups that are the strongest proponents of the all-must-be-free culture he established.
@cwebber
It's an interesting article, I think we also have to consider the considerable frustration that open letter comes from. It's from years of RMS being enabled. I don't think comparisons to be autistic are helpful either. But that's because I have family who were diagnosed. I see this as years of his behaviour being excused, and when people tried to explain it to him to help him change, he didn't take it on.
@acuteanniemay @brainwane