So I'm going to say that if there's something that makes me hesitant about embracing and encouraging people to join the Racket community, it would be that I casually mentioned "improving diversity" on the list and got chastized by one of its leaders!topi

@cwebber it can be tough in older communities and must probably be approached from people who know how to talk to those who don't understand it right away.

@cwebber Definitely not using RocketChat now. Whoa, that pushback was hard.

@cwebber Ha, that distinction is important. Duly noted.

Thanks for sharing this. It highlights what I've said to today about how these kinds of stances are leading to platforms reproducing the same issues they are allegedly trying to solve.

@Are0h @cwebber Ooph, yeah. That's too bad. I was getting excited for Racket, too.

@cwebber "'Diversity' is a made-up word that some people use to attack other people and force everybody into little groups, and I'm going to refer to 'white cis-gendered men' in scare quotes to indicate that I don't believe it's actually a thing. But you don't know my political views!"

@cwebber I've no particular interest in the Racket language. I've done Lisp before, and it seems I prefer other languages.

But that (one) response (and it's follow-up) means I'm likely to take a step further away from the community. If nothing else, one of the things I look for in a new technical community is diversity... of age, experience, approach, and point of view. Also other aspects.

I've spent enough time in white-straight-male-geek communities for a lifetime

@liw I think Matthias is an outlier in his views in the Racket community, but he has a lot of historical sway and influence and this is a repeated pattern.

I'm waiting to see what the rest of the community response is. I am hoping it won't be in the direction of Matthias's post... but we will see.

@cwebber Nod. Let's hope for the best, and my best wishes for helping the community improve.

@cwebber did they also get mad when bkuhn made a lengthy point about diversity during his racketcon talk?

@dthompson Yes, Matthias was mad, and he even references how he was upset by it in that email thread.

@cwebber I definitely noticed and felt it that I was the *only* woman presenting a talk at Racketcon last year ... and I was co-presenting with my spouse :/

@mlemweb @cwebber Sounds like there might be a need for, along the lines of Rust, a decidedly inclusive Racket-like project ... called Ruckus?

@therealraccoon @mlemweb @cwebber maybe there's hope, I'm watching the recording of the latest RacketCon and the first talk was by a Rust community leader
they didn't actually use any of the "bad SJW newspeak" words, (eg. they didn't mention racism or classism or sexism), but it seemed to speak to the same effect: "make your programming language community inclusive"

@grainloom @therealraccoon @mlemweb @cwebber All those *isms need to be named and dealt with! They don't go away if you ban the words. This is white fragility plain and simple.

@cwebber He posted that screed a couple of hours ago. Was there anything before then that made you hesitate?

@22 I was traveling to the airport and didn't see the post until when I replied to it.

@cwebber do you mean, you were aware of Matthias’ feelings for some time and that’s why you’d hesitate to tell people to join that community? Because, I was wondering if there were other reasons besides him?

@22 I haven't seen anyone else behave in that way particularly, though Matthias is part of Racket's most visible leadership.

Racket's community is very non-diverse at present to say the least, but prior to this email exchange I remained optimistic about it improving. I guess now I'll wait and see.

@cwebber eep, that is disturbing. good on Jack for pushing back and calling him out on his BS. I get the feeling that other core team members don't share that perspective but it's troubling all the same.

@technomancy @cwebber something always keeps me from committing all in on racket. In the past I had weird feels about the community (PLT scheme days), and more recently over this hardline technical stance, that I feel destroys usability in favor of strict semantics, which rubbed me wrong. I was considering trying again, but this and racket2 all together make me really question the choice.

@technomancy @cwebber I don’t know where else to go, and I end up dancing around the circle, occasionally crossing over, never comfortable enough with racket, and dissatisfied with everything else. 😂

@cwebber Wow this is so extremely shitty.

I can understand lots of responses, including no response at all, or saying that diversity is a goal but it's a secondary goal... but the agression level I saw certainly turns me off.

Snark: Is Racket an acceptable Python? Python has a diversity statement:

@cwebber On the positive side, it seems like most people so far didn't bat at an eye at your comment. But yeah, that's a troubling response from somebody in a leadership position. :(

@cwebber ugh, yea that's pretty disheartening. Though with the recent FOSSbro-related incidents around here lately, I can't say I'm surprised

@cwebber as soon as I saw mention of this, I knew both who said it and almost word for word what was said before looking. Goddammit. That’s not the only reason I disappeared from the scene soon after graduating, but it’s a big part of why I’ve never felt up to going back, especially now. I just wish others in better positions than me wouldn’t let such statements go unchallenged. (Tbh, I haven’t read the whole thread, so I dunno if there was any pushback from other major members.)

@sstrickl Some other people have spoken up counter to Matthias's comment, which is good. But yeah, it's unfortunate that it's a known pattern, enough that as you said, you knew before you read it...

@cwebber ooooof, that was disappointing and disheartening to read. I'm glad that I did though: it helps me learn what the landscape feels like to newcomers. Thanks for sharing.

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