the main problem with org-mode is still that collaboration is hard :\

but I guess we already discussed that in @librelounge episode 1 so I don't need to repeat myself here!

@cwebber Isn't that true of, like, most editors most of the time?

@astraluma yeah but org-mode becomes A Lot Of Things including project management, so collaboration tends to come up. And you might say, well, check it into git (good idea)! The challenge is, org-mode also encourages customization, so your org-mode and my org-mode might become different ;)

@cwebber @astraluma I have the same complaint I think it's because org-mode editing is the reverse of the MVC model. In org-mode you edit the data and then you render it in your agenda, etc.

What that means is that you can't operate atomically on the data easily. Emacs is always operating on the files, without the abstraction layer.

It's what makes org-mode so powerful and extensible, but without some kind of abstraction layer that Emacs could manage, there's no way to improve the situation.

@cwebber @astraluma Another option would be the Collabora model. Make an new Emacs frontend that is the browser somehow. Emacs can already handle multiple windows, so this would be mostly that.

I wonder why no one has done this? Maybe it's too hard? You'd have to do it in something like Canvas... with its own fonts and stuff, but would it really be that much harder than GTK?

@emacsen @astraluma arguably as much as I love plaintext, once we leave emacs it becomes more apparent why a structured representation would be better than plaintext at all for anything that has a GUI

@cwebber @astraluma I agree but *technically* org-mode is structured text. It's just a very extensible format that gets built upon.

The problem is that the format is so complex and deeply tied to the rendering that every time anyone tries to replicate all the functionality, it fails. I don't think these developers are dumb. That means we have two choices:

a) Abandon org-mode.

I don't want to but I am bumping up against too many limitations

b) Make emacs talk to the rest of the world

@emacsen @astraluma c) make everyone use emacs

I'm confident this is the one that will work

@cwebber @astraluma This is funny but even this won't work. Two emacs users can't work on the same org-mode file at the same time easily.

Either we'll get into synchronization issues or we'll get into configuration differences!

@emacsen @cwebber @astraluma I discovered org-mode a few months back and love it. But I suspect it would be easier to build an interoperable protocol with, inevitably, more rigidity, borrowing from the most-used features of org-mode, than to encourage more users, and developers, to use it as is.

@cwebber @astraluma I'm clearly not the only one whose thought of this:

For people wanting a Javascript version of Emacs, or Emacs living in the browser, you're missing core parts of emacs, which is that is what needs to be doing the file handling (and thus synchronization) as well as parts of the display.

@cwebber @astraluma What if a first crack at this was nothing more than a terminal emulator living in an HTML5 canvas, but sharable? It would be severely limiting but show the concept off.

Emacs keybindings wouldn't work, but that's okay for a demo.

@emacsen @cwebber @astraluma Don't forget org-babel. If you have an org-mode processing tool that does not handle org-babel evaluation, then it will very likely be boring :)

@astraluma @emacsen @cwebber The only thing I dislike with org-babel is the default evaluation of emacs-lisp code blocks. Emacs-lisp is cheating, since it has access to the whole org-mode API, and the even wider emacs API. So in fact, this (and the other small places where you're allowed to write emacs-lisp, like in macros and tables) means that if you want to be part of the org ecosystem, you need to implement emacs. This is sad for interoperability :(

@cwebber Emacs remote drone on a shared user account. 😀

We already have though. Some configuration of orgmode could very well be yet another document type there. And then a local plugin for emacsy textbox editing.
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