A lot of people find out that the W3C's governance is fucked up and overly dependent on corporate sponsorship (and it is) and then assume that the WHATWG must be a better institution (it isn't).
WHATWG is, for the most part, a "what-the-major-browser-vendors-say/do-rules" org. And keep in mind, that's now just two organizations (Google and Mozilla). That's good reason for pause.
@cwebber is there something we can do to improve W3c?
The problem with this kind of corporate sponsorship is it can allow for compromised positions that never would have been taken otherwise, like https://dustycloud.org/blog/drm-will-unravel-the-web/
@maloki I've long been interested in a hacker/community-oriented standards org. IETF is the closest we have, but isn't quite that. Though one thing the W3C does have is its patent non-aggression policy, and the reason that works is that it's able to bring a bunch of corporate participants to the table. I don't think a hacker standards org could do that. (There's also some government groups that will only accept work that come from "official" standards groups.)
Maybe it's still worth trying.
@cwebber Hmm... Yeah I'm not sure either or.
I just know I want to be part in building the Ethical Web.
@maloki Anyway, in order for such an org to work, it would have to have a plan for funding and governance from day 0 that informs the desired structure. I don't know what that would be. It wouldn't be easy to set up, I think.
@maloki Also a lot of the staff at standards orgs are paid to do what is, quite frankly, boring but necessary stuff. And we probably *would* have to pay people to do that.
Might be an idea we're interested to promote in future. Just started a reorg at HTC around "Pyramids of Humane Technology". One pyramid is Technology Alignment - alignment to humans; tech serving us, not vice-versa. The approach is optimistic, solution-oriented, not the usual doom & gloom.
@bhaugen thank you for sharing. It's interesting stuff on there.
@xj9 Where can I join?
webapps are more of a hack to get network applications going as far as I see it - not helped by routers and firewalls blocking almost everything but port 80/443 (we really destroyed the internet there).
I used to work a lot in the browser engine market and the amount of complexity induced for business reasons by “certain actors” has peaked to the point of being unmanageable.
We should create an alliance of some sort aimed at simplicity, clarity and accessibility of technology. Help support the freedom of the next generation of content creators.
Things like a manifesto with the basic principles whatever technology will have to abide to in order to put humanity and ethics first, always. Basically whatever the web once was and that is now lost to money, greed and corrupted people and corporations.
We have the technology. Do have the people?
@xj9 I think we need both better technical solutions and better governance, and both cover completely different problems. What I currently see, very very often, is pretty much an inability of what seems an increasing amount of people to work in projects they don't *lead*, in projects where someone else makes the decisions. That's where even large FLOSS projects (see certain Linux desktops) get forked without people noticing that this kind of fragmentation ...
@xj9 ... is going to hurt all of us. FLOSS has just a limited amount of people ready and willing to spend their time, energy and creativity working on Libre code, and we should both try to find options that reduce complexity (spoiler: from a distributed systems thinking point of view, I am totally unsure a federated system with several servers and clients actually does that) and options that help developer communities focus on building great things together. We ...
@xj9 I'm unsure. From a design point of view I whole-heartedly agree. But I see in many situations the problem not being a lack of having a well-structured system but (a) having too many implementations of interfaces which all are half-baked at very best and (b) the system overally becoming way too complex to maintain because at some point people lose sight of how all these things play together. That's where fragmentation becomes an issue. 😉
> just two organizations (Google and Mozilla).
s/Mozilla/Google Geek-friendly PR/
We are reorganizing around a new Mission/Vision and very interested to be be part in one way or other in any alternatives to the corporate internet that is taking over.