@kick @enkiv2 @dredmorbius @freakazoid
It's more a matter of: the social problem cannot be fixed by a technical change, so we should employ a social change instead. No matter what we do on a technical level, we can't really move the needle on this.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Changing norms is harder than employing technical systems because power is not as lopsided. To change norms, you need buy-in from most participants; to change tech, you just need to be part of the small privileged group who controls commit access. This is why it's so important, though. Norms aren't set in stone but they'll only change if you can actually convince people that changing their habits is a good idea!

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Most people online have had bad experiences with people weaponizing out-of-context information -- that's why technical solutions like RTBF exist. RTBF not actually working, while simultaneously pushing power into the hands of centralized corporate services, is obvious to most people too. Saying "it's impolite to dogpile on somebody without checking whether or not you've been misled first" is way less extreme.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius @freakazoid
Re: the speed at which norms can change, consider content warnings. They went from something that only a handful of folks with PhDs trying to work out experimental ways to avoid meltdowns in extreme circumstances having even heard of them to something that everybody is aware of & only jerks believe are never justified in a matter of ten years. We still argue about when they're justified but there isn't a serious contingent against using them at all.

@enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius I'm not arguing for RTBF. I'm arguing for not making it impossible to unpublish content.

CWs are nowhere near universal and the fact that they're not proves my point quite nicely.

@freakazoid @enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius i feel like making it possible to unpublish information requires criminalizing private information sharing and archival and anonymous communication; is there a less severe way?

@kragen @freakazoid @enkiv2 @kick @dredmorbius
This is sort of my point -- either we have an 'ask nicely' or we have a state-enforced 'ask nicely', & 'ask nicely' without state enforcement is a social norm thing.

@enkiv2 @kragen @freakazoid @dredmorbius For certain classes of published stuff, in Europe we already have legal ways to demand unpublication and the sky has not fallen as a result. And I think it's forcing techies in EU to (usually grudgingly) accept that technical choices are rarely free of social consequences.

@cathal @enkiv2 @freakazoid @dredmorbius I am skeptical; we will see how much longer the sky of open societies remains standing. Brexit, BoJo, the yellow jackets, Erdogan, Orban, and the Ukraine crisis do not seem like promising developments.

@cathal @enkiv2 @kragen @freakazoid @dredmorbius
RTBF has some issues, mostly because it's a mechanism where the EU deals directly with Google. It's hard to see how it would apply to somebody running a site off their home internet connection, let alone a p2p system. It's not like it doesn't do some good, but because of its structure it's limited & increases the de-facto power of the stacks.

@enkiv2 @kragen @freakazoid @dredmorbius Well, the RTBF got codified and generalised significantly by the GDPR - the right to demand the amendment of false information, to require delisting or deletion of personally identifying data that is not in the public interest, all that looks like RTBF to me.

@cathal @enkiv2 @kragen @freakazoid @dredmorbius
Fair enough. I always considered the primary result of the GDPR to be more reasonable defaults about data collection -- nobody will actually *agree* to all their traffic being vacuumed up the way it has been, given the choice, & it can't be justified as necessary, so if you want to do business in the EU you just delete logs more often and ditch the tracking pixels.

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