"While everyone would like to work for a nice person who is always right, IT pros will prefer a jerk who is always right over a nice person who is always wrong."
There's something WRONG with your industry and your social connections if you prefer sociopaths and narcissists as opposed to people who care about each other and what each other needs.
Is it any wonder that the IT and tech fields are so full of abuse and toxicity? I think NOT.
@ayachan THIS ANSWER PAID FOR BY MY $-MAKING, OVERWORKED FRIENDS IN THE TECH INDUSTRY
@cardboard It's already happening. Uber is in the doghouse big-time ever since that one former employee blew the whistle on sexual harassment and actual propositioning.
Many people in Silicon Valley are rapidly learning that their behaviour is going to get them heavily punished. Depressingly, these a**holes are still in the majority.
Also, if you're an insufferable p***k, then you shouldn't be working with other people EVER. Being empathetic beats "being right all the time" every single time.
@ayachan eh, i guess i agree with your last statement, personally, but i also am aware that there are people out there who value efficiency and other things above interpersonal relations / others' well-being. despite me not being able to relate, you yourself have stated it's important to believe everyone is unique, so can we REALLY fault these people who value other things? though i'd wish it weren't so, we wouldn't have a lot of nice things if it weren't for p****s.
@cardboard People who are intelligent and efficient can learn how to seek to understand; I speak from experience. The world--as it is right now--is unsustainable unless people learn things such as empathy and understanding each other.
I'm not saying everyone should create interpersonal relationships. I'm saying people should place a value on each other as fellow people and act accordingly; I am not asking for too much.
The world is suffering due to too high a focus on "my way or the highway."
@ayachan also, i'm not sure i agree with "rapidly", but i hate places like Uber so i don't follow what's happening with them. my instinct is that these things happen, the company deals with it in some way, and then things probably eventually go back to ALMOST the way they were, just a bit better. it takes time to change an entire toxic culture, esp if these people don't see themselves as being in the wrong. do they really think their problem was anything other than getting caught?
@cardboard So many people out there tend to dismiss the challenges facing the world today with statements like, "I hate it, so I don't follow what happens." We need to focus on how things impact everybody, not just on what impacts us as individuals; only privileged people can speak from this place of apathy and lack of interest.
With that attitude, things are never going to end up drastically changing. If we want to make a difference, we need to cast apathy aside and be a part of the process.
@ayachan i'm not apathetic, i just think it's irrational to expect everyone to devote a significant amount of time and effort to issues like these. i can't do a whole lot to affect these companies except not support them, so that's how i "fight." i have a hard enough time maintaining relationships with my friends and people i see in-person, so the last thing i need to do is give myself depression or anxiety over not caring about the tech industry.
@cardboard Fair enough. I don't believe all of us can fight all of the time, but I'm not okay with people saying it's hopeless and bringing down those who do fight in the process.
I, too, struggle with depression and anxiety. I have to take breaks when things get too intense. That's been a lifelong process for me.
@ayachan i by all means didn't want to bring anyone down or make it seem like it wasnt worth the fight! it just isn't everyone's fight, and the reason is different for different people. i think, personally, my energy is best devoted to other issues, if that makes sense
@ayachan caring about "everybody" is both impossible and crippling. i think people should focus on smaller scales to help others out, in general, rather than overlook the people in one's own city/neighborhood/home to focus on the relatively privalaged people who get screwed over by tech companies. i think people in the industry need to be responsible for fixing their own problems, or for reaching out for help when needed. harrassed in IT is not as bad as poor/starving/homeless.
@ayachan i'd rather help those around me have food and shelter any day over helping make the tech industry more tolerable, because the latter is frankly not very relevant to much of the world's well-being. i feel like we both want much of the same things, at least when it comes to goals, i'm just (far) less optimistic... i DO care about mental health of the opressed workforce, dont get me wrong, but i want to prioritize more pressing (imo), more localized issues :/
@cardboard I'm not optimistic as much as I am an optimistic realist. Or rather, I recognise that we have to fight the powers that be if we want the world to survive and be sustainable. If we truly are doomed, I'd rather go down swinging than allow the world to die around me while I do nothing.
Yes, small-scale efforts are important, but again, it's an issue of scale; we can work on all levels. This is also why we need organisations overseen by a central authority; it allows streamlined change.
@cardboard I believe everything goes on a matter of scale. You can focus on how things are going in your home community and fight for larger causes at the same time if you have the capacity for it.
Many people don't have the ability--or even the privilege--to reach out for help; those in charge are very powerful and often squelch dissenting voices from inside. Telling them that they're on their own is not a realistic solution.
@ayachan
Personally I'd prefer not to work for any boss, but for a coop where all the IT pros collectively manage the coop. But I know that's not common.
I also disagree with that article's premise. Working for a jerk would just lead me to find a new job, even if said jerk is right. No job is worth tolerating anyone's abuse even if that person's right. But I guess I'm also privileged.
@ND3JR Sadly, you are. Many people can't afford to just quit their job at the drop of a hat and automatically try to search for a new one.
Also, I wish more people in tech had your attitude. There is no excuse for being a narcissistic a**hole.
@ayachan @ND3JR perhaps the effect of these dysfunctional work environments is reflected in modern software and hardware that is increasingly full of defects, security vulnerabilities (to the point it can be unsafe in critical systems) and no real desire to fix these.
That said, the endusers at my work do not do any of the bad things in that article (nor do the senior management) and I am left alone to get things done (its not a tech organisation though)
@vfrmedia @ND3JR Just because these things don't happen in your work environment doesn't mean they don't happen elsewhere; your situation is the exception, not the rule.
I think you have a valid point; nothing gets done in toxic work environments and efficiency is lost when people don't feel safe or secure in where they're working. The first step to ending this narcissistic behaviour is to change the people who go into tech.
We need far more diversity in tech, plain and simple.
@ayachan @ND3JR one difference may be I am in the UK where tech industry is traditionally focused on embedded systems and niche products (the Raspberry Pi is a "happy accident" that grew out of this) - companies are a lot leaner and (slightly) more diverse,
but there is still a long way to go and we have slipped back since the 1980s (educators at high school level are trying to improve things but govt cutbacks and distraction of Brexit does not help..)
@ayachan There's lots wrong with the tech industry, and the preference among techies for competent assholes over kind people who don't know what they're doing is just look part of it.
@ayachan I'm not an IT pro, but I'd prefer a jerk that's always wrong, mainly because that'd give me an excuse to break out the extra bitterness </hhos>
@a_breakin_glass Haha. That is often how people in tech choose to respond to narcissistic a**holes in their field. Sadly, it doesn't resolve the underlying problem: abusive and toxic people make up a large amount of the tech industry.
I believe we need to effect change if we want to continue to have a sustainable tech industry, which is why I started this conversation.
@ayachan a nice person who is always wrong is in the wrong field/profession... but i get your point.
sometimes i think IT people prefer jerk bosses because they are more relatable/similar. if IT wasn't so ludicrously lucrative, i wonder how toxic it would be. i think as time passes and the IT Crowd becomes less elitest and more full of people who love it AND people too, that things will improve.
I don't know to expedite this process though...