@ainmosni Still not remotely the same. Making call-and-response jokes, or asking someone to make a statement about their abuser "best friend", etc. are not comparable to death threats, or to being blocked by half of Twitter by "mistake" for simply existing, or to being constantly invalidated by aggressively clueless randoms. If Wil had *started* with the apology instead of half-heartedly ending with it, maybe people could forgive him.

@trwnh From what I read, he has never targeted trans people and when he realised what was happening, he tried to fix it. Of course, his mistake did damage and that damage shouldn't be downplayed, but people should be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them, it's what makes us human. If social media will just be people mobbing each other for mistakes, maybe we should just give it all up.

The only question I have of you is, do you think he was acting in bad faith?

@ainmosni Well... it certainly seemed that way to a lot of people. His first real post after joining .cloud was to link to a Twitter thread that disingenuously argued that Mastodon was bad for marginalized people. And a few times he advocated for counter.social, an openly xenophobic silo. He was also evasive when people at first asked him if he was going to make a statement about Hardwick. Couple all this with his history on Twitter, and... people had little reason to trust him.

@ainmosni I think ultimately, with a significant portion of Mastodon being built by trans, queer, and other marginalized folk, many of whom were blocked by Wil on Twitter for no good reason? I don't see how that would have ever gone over well,unless he apologized immediately (and he's too unaware). Many of us came here to avoid all that. However, several people also came over very recently, and haven't healed fully; these are the people who took the most affront to his presence.

@trwnh So instead of taking the higher ground, and showing that you can be better, the moment you have the majority you adopt the same tactics as were used on you before? That just feels wrong... Just because the group that's dealing out the toxicity changes doesn't make it less toxic.

Look, I understand that people got hurt by his mistake. I'm not trying to justify that, but I was really hoping that, as a community, we could be above the mob mentality that made the other side so unpleasant.

@ainmosni FWIW, 2 weeks is not enough time to unlearn a whole decade of toxicity from the birdsite. And I'd still say it's not really the "same" -- it's a highly asymmetric experience, you know? The people here asking Wil to clarify his stance on abusers and trans women are but hundreds, maybe. It's just that Wil has never really had to deal with them earnestly, on account of them being blocked on Twitter. The "high ground" would be to avoid him, but if you're confrontational...

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@ainmosni @Lexi On that note, I think I really will attempt to head off to sleep for a few hours. If you'd like to continue this, it'll have to be much later. Cheers!

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@trwnh I vaguely remember that thread, and I didn't see him sharing it as doing so in bad faith. No idea about counter.social, or him linking to it. I still think that this went in a way that most of us tried to get rid of by moving away from the birdsite.

@ainmosni Fair. I can't say anyone was really acting in bad faith, but I do think a lot of people were reflexively defensive, Wil included.

It was interesting to see the difference in response by account age. I've been here for two years and I was also blocked by wilw, but my first response was to mute him and move on. Similar with many of my older peeps. The thing is that the newer people (Wil included) have only been here for 2 weeks at *most* (since August 16th).

@ainmosni @trwnh yes, he has acted in bad faith for at least a decade. google his comments about hillary clinton, for instance. he's outright misogynistic, while at the same time pretending he's not. he's the worst kind of duplicitous, entitled white guy. good riddance.

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@ainmosni @aral : who is this person? Why was he harrassed? Is there any background?

@ainmosni @ploum @aral why does he not move instance? An alias might help, but that is optional.

@orbifx @ainmosni @aral : it doesn't matter. He's not the one to blame. As long as he respects the rules of his instance, he must be respected or, at worst, ignored. One can reply angrily to one of his toots but not attack him because "it's him".

If he's so bad, just ignore him or block him.

@ploum @orbifx @ainmosni @aral

Ignoring doesn't work when the problem individual causes real-life problems for the people he professes to care about:

medium.com/@AmberEnderton/wil-

At best, he's been careless and chronically self-absorbed. I just blocked him the minute I saw him here...months ago. But I won't condemn the people he hurt directly for being unable to swallow their anger so easily.

@amylsacks @orbifx @ainmosni @aral : I agree that real-life problems are a few step higher.

I was saying "if you don't like someone on a social network, for whatever reason, block him".

@ploum @orbifx @ainmosni @aral

That's the problem, though. Blocking works for me (as contented internet Nobody who would freak out in a bad way if she got more than 10 boosts for a post), but his buddy's blacklist had real negative long-term effects for some of his peers. So for them, that's not the most utilitarian solution. :(

@orbifx @ainmosni @ploum @aral
Why in hell should he be required to move instances ? Because a mob decided to target him ? Isn't that the very reason all those people left birdsite in the first place ? To my knowledge he has not broken any rule or been disrespectful in here, he should not be required to do anything.

@ainmosni a techie should offer to run his own. Instance for him, or have a celebs instance for people likely to draw fire... (Offer, but not for free obvs). @mastohost

@pperrin well Masto.host is open, anyone can contact me with any specific requests they have. I am not fully aware of what happen and from reading that post probably he could have a different experience if he ran his own instance. And, probably not and he would still feel like social media is not for him. So, if I am contacted, I will gladly provide my services. @ainmosni

@mastohost @ainmosni He didn't actually leave, his host said it was too much trouble. He said

"I respect and support that person’s decision, because it’s a private server and it’s run with their time, energy, attention, and (presumably) money"

Which makes me think he might be happy to pay for his own personal managed instance (managed tech and spam/abuse etc management!) if he knew such a option was available.

Don't ask; don't get!

@pperrin @ainmosni @mastohost
Alternatively mastodon could get the technical features needed to deal with irrelevant signaling, so that the people doing it can grow out of that bad habit.

@RLetot @ainmosni @mastohost It has the features, all that is needed is an understanding of them so they can be used effectively.

You can't expect every user to be a techi expert - I remember when SQL was sold as the end of database developers because users could write their own queries :))

@pperrin @ainmosni @mastohost
I meant features to help admins and moderators deal with abusive signaling. Some things that makes that practice costly to the abuser and trains him not to abuse it.

@RLetot @ainmosni @mastohost Smallish instances would solve most problems - an instance that keeps generating abuse needs to sort out its members or get muted or even blocked. New instances could initially also be muted unless/until a dozen people on trusted instances vouch for them... the instance admin has this kind of stuff in his (male or female) power already.

Train users? there will always be jerks, I vote to just deal with them.

@pperrin @ainmosni @mastohost
In this scenario, the problem lies with the signalers, not the signalee. Isolate him on an instance for him alone, he still will be signaled by hordes of bullies. The problem lies with them, not their target.

@RLetot @ainmosni @mastohost His instance admin wasn't prepared to handle the work - the solution is in his hands (if he wants it) get an instance with staff to handle the work (once staffed up he could get his mates on it too).

Do you still think he opens his own fan mail?...

@pperrin @ainmosni @mastohost
you're thinking about this particular case, and tayloring your "solution" accordingly. I'm thinking of the more general case: nobody should have to move or pay because a bunch of lunatics decided to make him a target. Any mean to make this more manageable or to get such behaviour under control is a step in the right direction.

@RLetot @ainmosni @mastohost No mastodon already has the solution for these who can be bothered to apply it, the solution is already in your hands - it is the essence of its design.

I think some people actually dislike mastodon, and would really prefer
twitter to have a monopoly, but with them in charge instead of jack!

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