It's no reflection on trans folks, but I hate being labelled cis. Don't identify as that, don't want to. Apparently saying that makes me a bigot, despite the fact that a chunk of my work is specifically supporting LGBTQI folks. Derp.
@Witchsmeller I know a lot of people who don't like the words cis and trans for themselves, and some of them their gender matches the one they were assigned and some of them it doesn't.
But if your gender truly is the same as the one you were assigned at birth, being grouped with other cis people is appropriate. If you don't want to be grouped with other cis people, perhaps you are in fact trans?
@Witchsmeller But if your gender is truly the same as the one you were assigned at birth and you don't want to be grouped with other cis people... Yeah, you're no ally.
@cassolotl Have you thought that maybe I don't want to be grouped or labelled at all?
@cassolotl Yes, absolutely. I recognise that and completely agree. However, is still doesn't mean I want to, or have to, choose to identify as cis. Do you see what I mean? To me it's yet another label, yet another divider.
@Witchsmeller Sure, but that's a different thing from other people grouping you based on characteristics. You don't have to identify as cis or feel cis, but if your gender is the same as the one you were assigned at birth then you will be automatically grouped with cisgender people because language is about communicating a lot of complex information using very little effort!
@Witchsmeller Labels are for many trans people not dividers but a way to express that they experience the world in a very different way. Marginalised groups find strength and community and common ground with labels. There is sometimes value in acknowledging difference, *especially* when you're acknowledging the common negative experiences of being in a particular group, so that that marginalisation can be investigated and eliminated.
@Witchsmeller So for example, someone saying that we should remove all barriers and say that trans people and cis people are all the same, we're all human, is profoundly harmful. I will never experience the privileges that come with being cisgender, just like I will never experience the disadvantages that come with being not-white. It's important to talk about that so that we can counteract it and make things more equal, no?
@cassolotl This is reasonable, yep.
@Witchsmeller Then I'm not sure I understand! In your original toot you say "I don't like when people label me cis" but then in this toot that I'm replying to you say that people labelling you as cis is reasonable!
@cassolotl Because every time I've ever been labelled as it, it was with a spirit that said if I don't I'm a bigot! But with zero explanation as to why I should think differently. Think of it this way, trans people have generated a significant amount of understanding (literal, if not empathetic) in the general community. How did that happen?
@Witchsmeller Ahhh, that is a shame, but as part of the trans community I can sort of see why! It's like, trans people are really sick of being ignored and having our concerns dismissed and minimised, and "I don't like the cis/trans system" said by cis people is often said out of ignorance or in the spirit of denial, so it has a very different tone than when said by a person whose gender is different to the one they were assigned at birth.
@cassolotl Think ofit this way. First time I ever heard cis it was clearly used as a pejorative, and I had to look it up on wikipedia. It's like a double whammy. 9/10 people have no idea what it even means. I'm not against it in spirit, but a conversation is better than an order.
@Witchsmeller If you don't mind me asking, how was it used pejoratively? Like, as a slur? In the same way that someone would say "that thing you just did was so gay, ew"?
@cassolotl Not quite a slur, but wholly dismissive. As if being who I am meant that I had nothing valid to say. Not even like a case of mansplaining, but a simple "Phhhht"
@Witchsmeller Well, I think that might have been appropriate depending on context. Obviously no one likes to be dismissed, but when discussing sensitive issues about a particular marginalised group, WITH a member of that marginalised group, AS a person from the privileged group, it is really really hard to navigate that sensitively, and it is also really hard work for a trans person to be so tolerant with the same issues over and over again...
@Witchsmeller Which is not to say that you should tolerate people being intolerant and disrespectful! Absolutely not. You have a right to disengage and seek enlightenment elsewhere, if you want to.
@cassolotl Yep, I hear you. But when the majority of people have no idea what it means, that's an issue.
@Witchsmeller I would say that as members of the marginalised group, it is not our job to deal with transphobia - and transphobia includes "we are normal and don't have to deal with the cis/trans spectrum because we are normal." I would say that it's the responsibility of people of cis experience to teach each other to not be transphobic/oppressive.
@cassolotl I think in this case, sincerely, the vast majority of cis people (Yeah, I get it and will use it appropriately :) ) simply would be amazed that not being aware of "being cis" is inherently transphobic. It's a massive bow to draw imo.
@Witchsmeller Yeah, this is early days for trans awareness. It is a bit much to expect cis people to know what cisgender means! It only just got added to the dictionary, hehe. For sure both sides could be more tolerant, and both sides' anger is understandable. It's inevitable, until enough people know enough.
@Witchsmeller We are entirely reliant on very very kind cis and trans people educating each other and educating the privileged people, in a sea of reasonable and healthy anger reactions. It's a mess.
@Witchsmeller If you reject labels like "English-speaker" and you don't identify with the gender you're usually grouped with (even though you admit that you experience that gender) and you don't identify as [birthcountry]ian and so on, then it's not about trans/cis, and there is no need to mention that one incongruence specifically, right? But when you do mention that one incongruence specifically, it comes across as bigoted.
@cassolotl The thing is, it's only in this instance where I'm called a bigot for not using it, even though I wouldn't use the others either.
@Witchsmeller This instance like, when talking about not wanting to be called cis? I imagine that's because there is a BIG difference in power and experience between being cis and being trans. And, I think people have said "I don't feel cis" while having a cis experience quite a lot, so it's rubbing it in trans people's faces - we "don't feel cis" a LOT more than you, right? We get beaten, murdered, evicted, fired for "not feeling cis", so hearing a cis person say that is very dismissive.
@Witchsmeller It is often used in ignorance, to erase the marginalisation we face in one tiny sentence. So for a lot of us it is a red flag. Even when said innocently, it is insensitive.
@cassolotl APologies, I've lost track of toots here. What is "it" in this case? :)
@Witchsmeller "It" is someone saying "my gender is the same as the one I was assigned at birth but I don't like it when people call me cis/I don't identify as cis" or similar.
@Witchsmeller It's in the same box, perhaps, as "well, we're all a little bit trans, aren't we?" It shows that the speaker has no real awareness of the vast difference of experience.
I have seen people say "I'm not trans, but I have a trans experience." So perhaps you could be like "I don't identify as cis, but I have a cis experience" - how does that feel?
@cassolotl @Witchsmeller FWIW I haven't had that pop up; what people do (most of whom knew me when) is want to talk about something trans-ish that they read, whereas I want to talk about sustainable farming and co-ops and such.
@risabee @Witchsmeller Ha, yes. :D I have that a lot with doctors! I'm like "so I have this problem with my joints..." and they're like "so you're trans, huh? Talk to me about that." Um, nope. :D I would like to just not be notably trans right now.
@cassolotl Yep, I completely understand this. It could well be that I simply haven't understood how me being identified as cis actually assists, but thanks for this.
@Witchsmeller I guess it assists first of all by acknowledging that trans people have a much worse time of it just by being trans! And then after that it gets more complex. Part of being a good friend to trans folks is acknowledging that you have a lot of privilege just by accident of birth, sort of thing. It acknowledges that we exist in a transphobic system that you benefit from in a way that we don't. Among other things.
@cassolotl Yep, I hear you. However, if someone expects me to change with zero explanation, and calls me a bigot for not simply jumping to attention, well that's an issue. More of an approach problem than anything.
@Witchsmeller When you know the full story behind that approach problem, it makes a lot more sense. I think probably saying "I don't like to identify on the cis/trans spectrum but I acknowledge that I share experiences with cis people and I have a lot of privilege as a result" would probably help a lot!
@cassolotl Now that I agree with every single word. Actually nearly everything you've said I agree with, but having a conversation is a much more pleasant route to enlightenment, if you get me.
@Witchsmeller I totally do get you! It is really hard though because there's that whole "the marginalised people should not be burdened with the task of enlightening the oppressors" thing, which I do agree with, and I also agree that trans people have a right to be angry with cis people who don't get it or who are accidentally transphobic (which happens often, like, all day every day, we live in a transphobic world - anger is a healthy response!).
@cassolotl It could simply boil down to me, but if I'm walking away with this feeling and I'm very "you be you, and I'll celebrate you for it (unless you're a fuckwith racist/scummo type" how must it be for other people less concerned?
@Witchsmeller I reckon that's not our (trans people's) problem! Like, if ignorant people have a bad experience with trans people and they leave being like "wow they were awful", the problem might be that they generalise based on their experience instead of trying to understand why. Which is a fairly normal human reaction also! And the best thing is when cis people teach each other so that trans people can have a better time without having to educate and suppress our anger all the time.
@cassolotl I hear the last part, and I also hear the...tiredness with explaining (ironically, as you are now) but...I'm just reading your next one.... and that's my point in a nutshell. When it's so little know, but there's an assumption that people should know it and incorporate it into their life, and that they're a bigot if they haven't? That's a regretable assumption.
@Witchsmeller Yeah, that is another understandable but regrettable thing! We're like, ugh, can you not just accept that you are cis and it's a good idea to acknowledge that and acknowledge your cis privilege, etc etc. But to other people it sounds like "damn you for not knowing everything already!!!!" And to us it sounds like you're saying "I've never needed to say I was cis and I'm not about to start now, you transtrender upstarts are so demanding!"
And then, arrows fly... :P
@cassolotl Haha, that's exactly how it goes. I have zero problems with the nub of the issue, but yeah the PR dept :)
@Witchsmeller Yeah, the PR dept! Haha. :D And like, yeah, again, I feel like maybe we as the marginalised group shouldn't be lumped with the responsibility of having a PR dept - I feel like the cis people, as the privileged group, should be putting the work in to make us feel comfortable, to help each other understand us and to help each other have enough resources to not have to ask us trans people for answers all the time.
Personally I'm happy to, but it's hard when you're not even given the Cliff's notes.
@Witchsmeller Yeah, absolutely. It is really hard. I have this difficulty with issues around racism. Like, someone not-white tells me I'm being racist, and I'm like, please teach me! And they're like, ugh, no, go research. And I have ZERO clue where to start. So I basically can't do anything except... refrain from doing the offensive thing again, and patiently wait until I accidentally stumble upon the info. :P
@cassolotl YES! It's kinda like I don't need to be pulled up the mountain, but please point me toward the mountain without calling me a cunt :)
@Witchsmeller Haha, yes. :D And when being pointed at the mountain is something they can't or don't want to do, which is fair enough, I have to sit with my discomfort and confusion and fear that I will probably do the bad thing again. It's just how it has to be, I think!
@Witchsmeller So like, if 1 in 70 people are trans, that's 79 cis people asking 1 trans person for the answers, when 1 cis person could ask the 1 trans person and then that 1 cis person could inform like 2 cis people, and they could each inform 2 cis people, etc etc. And then the trans person only has to do the explaining once!
But, humans are inefficient. :D
@cassolotl That I completely understand. Honestly, a part of me thinks that the 79 cis (assuming they are well meaning) people are simply curious, but that has a cost.
@Witchsmeller Yeah, curious questions are often unpleasant. "So, were you born a girl or a boy?" "Do you have surgery for that?" "What does it say on your birth certificate?" All genuinely curious and well-meaning questions, but all potentially (and often) very intrusive and transphobic, context-dependent!
@cassolotl see that's bizarre to me. I mean, I would never ask anyone else that kind of question.
@Witchsmeller And like, sometimes I am totally happy to talk about this and explain everything and have all the empathy and do all the educating, and sometimes I have no patience and people have misgendered me all day and I'm just SNAPPISH. So y'know, I explain when I can but sometimes I just can't, so folks can't ask me all the questions, they've just gotta find out stuff elsewhere. And they're like, where do I look to get the answers I need? And I'm like ARGH ask someone else, I'm tired!
@cassolotl Sadly I have to go do some work=, but it's been great talking to you, thanks very much. Next time I have a question about trans...I'll just google it and talk to you about normal life stuff :)
@Witchsmeller That's something that's common to cis and trans people in approximately equal amounts, I think! But if the gender you were assigned at birth is the same as your gender, you AT LEAST share many experiences with cisgender people - in the same way that you share experiences with other people whose gender is the same as yours, other people born in the same area as you, people who speak the same language as you, etc.