So, great work fediverse, you've shown you can be as toxic as the site you're making so much fun of.
@ainmosni Still not remotely the same. Making call-and-response jokes, or asking someone to make a statement about their abuser "best friend", etc. are not comparable to death threats, or to being blocked by half of Twitter by "mistake" for simply existing, or to being constantly invalidated by aggressively clueless randoms. If Wil had *started* with the apology instead of half-heartedly ending with it, maybe people could forgive him.
@trwnh From what I read, he has never targeted trans people and when he realised what was happening, he tried to fix it. Of course, his mistake did damage and that damage shouldn't be downplayed, but people should be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them, it's what makes us human. If social media will just be people mobbing each other for mistakes, maybe we should just give it all up.
The only question I have of you is, do you think he was acting in bad faith?
@ainmosni Well... it certainly seemed that way to a lot of people. His first real post after joining .cloud was to link to a Twitter thread that disingenuously argued that Mastodon was bad for marginalized people. And a few times he advocated for counter.social, an openly xenophobic silo. He was also evasive when people at first asked him if he was going to make a statement about Hardwick. Couple all this with his history on Twitter, and... people had little reason to trust him.
@ainmosni I think ultimately, with a significant portion of Mastodon being built by trans, queer, and other marginalized folk, many of whom were blocked by Wil on Twitter for no good reason? I don't see how that would have ever gone over well,unless he apologized immediately (and he's too unaware). Many of us came here to avoid all that. However, several people also came over very recently, and haven't healed fully; these are the people who took the most affront to his presence.
@trwnh So instead of taking the higher ground, and showing that you can be better, the moment you have the majority you adopt the same tactics as were used on you before? That just feels wrong... Just because the group that's dealing out the toxicity changes doesn't make it less toxic.
Look, I understand that people got hurt by his mistake. I'm not trying to justify that, but I was really hoping that, as a community, we could be above the mob mentality that made the other side so unpleasant.
@ainmosni @trwnh I don't think they were saying it's okay or acceptable. More like...it was inevitable, given the circumstances and timing? We should all try to learn from it and do better moving forward.
Personally, I still don't know what to make of Wil. He's probably not a bad guy, but if someone knows something I don't, please tell me. Either way, I don't think messaging @ him was right; if you have concerns about someone's presence, talk about it and tell your mods.
@Lexi @ainmosni "Aggressively clueless" is how I'd describe him, I guess? In the way that most liberals are, perhaps well-meaning, perhaps not. Fact of the matter is that trans people are mostly tired of dealing with bullshit. Someone like Wil is only slightly more welcome than Graham Linehan (who, incidentally, was suspended here already) or Blair White (may she never join).
That said, it's important to listen to the complaints of minorities, because we don't have the energy to make a fuss about someone without a reason. I've seen posts from trans people who say Wil's presence made them feel less safe here because of the company he supposedly keeps, seeing him like the tip of a nasty iceberg.
@ainmosni @trwnh I really can't say if those fears are 'founded', but I at least believe that they're real feelings belonging to people who have been through a lot. In that case, blocking may not have seemed like an option, because people _can_ turn a place bad behind your back.
Of course, one can voice their concerns to the community without engaging the person directly. That's what I'd do. But like I said, I'm also broken from Twitter and would rather not engage with problem people, so...
@Lexi @trwnh For me, as someone who plays life on "easy mode", I understand. The problem is that it's very easy to give in to mob mentality. Yes, minorities should be listened to and taken seriously, we just also have to take care that we don't blindly believe things just because they came from someone in a minority. As transphobic gay people show, there's assholes everywhere, even belonging minorities.
There's a reason why offline, the words "innocent until proven guilty" are so important.
@Lexi @trwnh Add to that, that I really hate how social media, collectively, seems to have no capacity of forgiveness. The outrage always wins from the apology, no matter how sincere. We all make mistakes, it's part of the human experience, and we should be allowed to make them and be forgiven for them.
As for forgiveness, well... Maybe you're right. And maybe we need to do better, collectively. I'm willing to try! So long as the person doesn't do one of those weird non-apologies ("We're sorry what we said hurt your feelings," etc.).
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