But also it's not the having we seek, it's the seeking, the almost having, the moment of opening the box. Once we have the object we are invariably disappointed.

Not sure if I'm getting this exactly right, but I think maybe the idea is we may have a deep need to seek (a survival instinct). Once we have something, why act at all? We would just sit on the couch all day. So the drive to seek is stronger than the pleasure of having. Capitalism lays itself on top of this deep need by channeling that seeking and desire into buying and attaining money and objects. But the more you have, the more unsatisfied you are, the more you seek

@Latkes My understanding is that the major predictor of happiness in a society is equality. It doesn't matter what you have (beyond a certain minimum) anywhere near as much as it matters how much less you have than someone else. The need to seek seems like something that works when we do it in groups, and less so when we do it alone. Which might account for class formation in psychological, rather than economic, terms.

@howfar Uh huh. Makes sense. I wonder what the special sauce is that pushes a society to seek as a group. And what makes us expand our sense of sense of our group?

@Latkes Finding the answer to that second question (which derives from the first) seems like a pretty fundamental challenge, when it comes to the issues of hierarchy and privilege that basically mess everything up for almost everyone.

One of my favourite depictions of a utopia is Robinson's Red Mars. Its workaholic paradise idea seems to suggest that social cohesion comes out of a shared sense of seeking *for its own sake*. The idea of hunters and soldiers as noble could be related to that.

@Latkes Those two linked questions seem pretty fundamental to all the problems of hierarchy and privilege that mess nearly everything up for nearly everyone.

One of my favourite fictional utopias is in KSR's Red Mars. A workaholic's paradise where every day is a challenge, and cohesion arrises from a wholly external other: a dead planet. It seems like that ideal is about people recognising the joy of seeking for its own sake. Maybe points towards an explicitly communitarian approach.

@howfar Hmm. Yeah, I always feel like some degree of struggle is fundamental to individuals and to a culture or group. Not sure the magic balance of some struggle vs. too much suffering.

@Latkes I mean, for MacIntyre, it's all about striving for excellence, as well as being able to shape coherent narratives about ourselves and our societies. That seems pretty similar to the idea of "seeking" as a fundamental, coupled with "seeking as a group" as the ideal social state.